for JCanon

by IronGland 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    Let?s examine these terms closely.

    ENLIGHTENED?compare to John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, ENLIGHTENS EVERY man.

    Definitely not a salvation term. If EVERY man is enlightened this also includes the unsaved.

    TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT?compare to Matt. 26:26 ....Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, ?Take, EAT; this is My body.? & John 6:51 ?I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone EATS of this bread, he shall live forever; .....?

    Also not a salvation term (IMHO). If the author wanted to communicate these were saved individuals, why didn?t He use the term ?....EATEN of ...? instead of ?tasted of ....?

    PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?compare to Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, & Titus 3:5 He saved us, ....by the ....RENEWING by the Holy Spirit, & 2Tim. 1:14 ...the Holy Spirit who DWELLS in us.... & Mark 1:8 ?...but He will BAPTIZE you with the Holy Spirit.?.

    Why didn?t he use terms such as ?sealed with...? or ?baptized in.....? or ?indwelt with....?? And surely if an unsaved person can be enlightened by the H.S., he can also be a partaker in Him.

    TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD?compare to 1John 2:14 ...Because you are strong, and the word of God ABIDES in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.

    and also..

    KJV: Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Yehoshua Mashiyach, which Elohim gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:























    An interesting point is made with: 'Does God foreknow because he foreordains or does he foreordain because he foreknows?' The latter seems to please Arminians; the former seems to please Calvinists" ( Un Conditioning ). Although, i think both sides have habitually bastardized what Rom. 8:29 is trying to say (perhaps another passage for you to cover in suppliment to your TULIP articles? just a thought). To narrow the view down a bit, i further propose that the contention between the views is, what is predestination contingent on? i would argue that the traditional Arminian supposes that "whosoever believes" are predestined to salvation (and to be conformed to the likeness of his Son); whereas Calvinists suppose that folks are predestined to salvation and belief, according to God's unrevealed will (or plan, purpose, or good pleasure). i think that these views are the only ones that could conceivably be interpreted from Scripture.

    John Wesley places the source of the contention in the form of a dilemma, "'Is predestination absolute or conditional?' The Arminians believe, it is conditional; the Calvinists, that it is absolute." ( What Is an Arminian? , paragraph 10). I think this is a helpful approach, though i prefer starting from Previent Grace and working the other way.

    now on General Atonement, the Arminian doctrine, there is a bit of ambiguity. The original creed made by the Remonstrants says this:

      That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, ?For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.? And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: ?And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.?

    (The Remonstrant Articles, Article 2). The actual ambiguity isn't obvious, but i have observed two distinct interpretations of the doctrine.

    1) that Christ actually suffered for all in the sense that his blood covers all sins, and it is disbelief that keeps people from being saved. (i've seen a couple on the CARM forums hold this view)

    2) that Christ suffered for all, so that his blood would cover the sins of anyone who believes. in this view atonement is limited in a sense, but by man's belief/disbelief, rather than God's absolute election. (Jaltus, myself, and a few others here hold this one)

    I believe that the second position is the most biblical and theologically sound, though i can see how some might come to the first interpretation from verses like 1Jn. 2:2. Interestingly enough, an adherent to the latter view would not disagree at all with your language: "Christ suffered sufficiently to atone for all the world's sins, but suffered effectively only for the elect" (Within Limits); that is, so long as it is recognized that "elect" and "believers" are roughly equivalent (which is obviously true, but remember that Calvinists load the term "elect" differently from Arminians). Where we contrast from Calvinism's Limited Atonement is that in their view it is impossible for any person who is not elect to be atoned for (hence it is limited in the most literal sense). On the other hand, we believe that the nonelect could have been atoned for, since anyone could have believed in Christ. As you see, our respective positions on atonement are closely related to how each side views the belief-election relationship.

    in regards to Apostasy and Anxiety, my personal view of Conditional Assurance (people use the term "Conditional Eternal Security." i think it is oxymoronic, but oh well), is pretty much along the same lines. And in fact, a lot of Arminians i have chatted with have come to the same conclusion.

    In conclusion, IT may possibly be thought, that there is no great need of going about to define or describe the Will; this word being generally as well understood as any other words we can use to explain it: and so perhaps it would be, not philosophers, metaphysicians, and polemic divines, brought the matter into obscurity by the things they have said of it. But since it is so, I think it may be of some use, and will tend to greater clearness in The following discourse, to say a few things concerning it.

    (1)And therefore I observe, that the Will (without any metaphysical refining) is, That by which the mind chooses any thing. The faculty of the will, is that power, or principle of mind, by which it is capable of choosing: an act of the will is the same as an act of choosing or choice.

    If any think it is a more perfect definition of the will, to say, that it is that by which the soul either chooses or refuse, I am content with it; though I think it enough to say, it is that by which the soul chooses: for in every act of will whatsoever, (2) the mind chooses one thing rather than another; it chooses something rather than the contrary or rather than the want or non-existence of that thing.

    (3) So in every act of refusal, the mind chooses the absence of the thing refused; the positive and the negative are set before the mind for its choice, and it chooses the negative; and the mind's making its choice in that case is properly the act of the Will: (4)the Will's determining between the two, is a voluntary determination; but that is the same thing as making a choice.

    (5)So that by whatever names we call the act of the Will, choosing, refusing, approving, disapproving, liking, disliking, embracing, rejecting, determining, directing, commanding, forbidding, inclining, or being averse, being pleased or displeased with; all may be reduced to this of choosing.

    For the soul to act voluntarily, is evermore to act electively. Mr. Locke (1) says, " (6) The Will signifies nothing but a power or ability to prefer or choose." And, in the foregoing page, he says, "The word preferring seems best to express the act of volition;" but adds, that "it does it not precisely; for, though a man would prefer flying to walking, yet who can say he ever wills it?"

    (7) But the instance he mentions, does not prove that there is any thing else in willing, but merely preferring: for it should be considered what is the immediate object of the will, with respect to a man's walking, or any other external action; which is not being removed from one place to another; on the earth or through the air; these are remoter objects of preference; but such or such an immediate exertion of himself.

    The thing next chosen, or preferred, when a man wills to walk is not his being removed to such a place where he would be, but such an exertion and motion of his legs and feet &c, in order to it. And his willing such an alteration in his body in the present moment, is nothing else but his choosing or preferring such an alteration in his body at such a moment, or his liking it better than the forbearance of it.

    (8)And God has so made and established the human nature, the soul being united to a body in proper state that the soul preferring or choosing such an immediate exertion or alteration of the body, (8a)such an alteration instantaneously follows.

    "When faced with compelling evidence of the joys of heaven, and torment of hell, is it possible for depraved man to perferr heaven over hell. Is not even his preference of heaven in keeping with his sinful nature. After all, we do not seek heaven for any other reason than the joys that it brings.." Bottom line, all choice demands preexsting criteria. In reguard to election, it is believed that God choose some individuals over others. None pretend to know what criteria God used. Doesn't matter. For it must be logically concluded that God choose based on criteria that was found in this elect that was not found in those not chosen.

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    btt

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    cont'd

    Revel. 3:20 and John 1:12.

    Two brief comments on those verses & then we'll toss it out for discussion:

    Rev. 3:20 was written to the church at Laodicea. IMO believers are addressed. Also, the Greek does not allow for translating it as "into." That's why nearly every reputable translation has it "in to."

    John 1:12 is speaking of receiving Jesus not as inviting Him into our lives, but as accepting Him as Who He is - the Son of God.

    Now let me make it clear that I have no problem whatsoever with anyone using the Rev. 3:20 illustration/allegory in sharing the gospel. It asks the seeker to pursue a close fellowship with God, which many seekers desire - a genuine relationship with God, such as John wrote about in John 4:20-24. I also have no doubts that someone who has prayed such a prayer - inviting Jesus to come into their lives - is genuinely saved, as this was an expression of faith. But do I use this illustration? Not anymore. It's not necessary IOT make the gospel clear, and in fact it is a recent expression of the past 150 years or so.

    Exodus 12:21-24
    Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb. "You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning. "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you. "And you shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever.

    is no New Testament mandate for the wider Easter celebration, unlike baptism and the Lord's Supper. Some heavily fundamentalsit Protestants, like Seventh Day Adventists, don't celebrate Easter at all.

    Calvin agreed that only God can institute a festival, and regarded Easter about as well as he did circumcision:

      "Calvin considered the annual church feast of
      Easter so paganized that at one point he did not observe it."
      - Donna and Mal Broadhurst Before Messiah and After
      (Carol Stream, Illinois 1987), p159

    Luther agreed with Calvin but, inconsistently, still wished to retain Sunday as a holy day:

      "And would to God that in Christendom there were no
      holy days except Sunday."
      - Treatise on Good Works

    Should be aninteresting discussion.

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    Galatians 1:6-9
    6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
    NIV

    The "gospel" that Paul is hoping to counteract is that of the Judaizers, those who say you must become a Jew to be saved (which is precisely what the Acts 9 people say Peter taught). We see Peter is rebuked later in Galatians for having once eaten with Gentiles but then eating seperate from them when the Jews arrived.

    Anyways, supposing two dispensations, one prior to Acts 9 (where you must be a Jew to be saved), the other after (where you must believe in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection), we find that Paul condemns preaching the salvific "methods" if you will of the prior dispensation in the current, post-Acts 9 dispensation in Galatians.

    Since the Acts 9 group says that PAul and Peter had different gospels, obviously, Paul has denounced and condemned Peter and his gospel. Therefore, if solid evidence is found that Peter preached his different gospel (according to Acts 9 group) after the new dispensation in Acts 9, where Paul gets saved, then Paul says Peter is eternally condemned (BTW, the "let him be eternally condemned" is 3rd person imperative. It is not allowing him to be eternally condemned but commanding that he be condemned.)

    Here is the evidence that, according to the Acts 9 groups theology, Peter is eternally condemned:

    The Acts 9 group, appears to hold that 2 Peter is written by Peter, who is not in on the "mystery" that Paul has recieved. He is writing this letter in the older dispensation. The problem is that, though 2 Peter doesn't explicitly date itself, it gives many internal clues as to when it was written.

      It was written:
    • just prior to Peter's death in the mid-60s AD (1:12-15)
    • after Paul got saved (in Acts 9) because he is called Peter's "dear brother" (3:15)
    • long enough after Paul's salvation to have allowed Paul to write some (or all?) of his letters and allowed time for them to begin to circulate (3:16)
    • long enough after Paul's letters for them to be called Scripture (3:16)

    Therefore, since Peter clearly wrote 2 Peter after Acts 9.

    Also the fact that Peter calls Paul's letters Scripture, even though he is supposedly unaware of the mystery Paul proclaims is interesting.

    All of this leaves the Acts 9 group with two options:

      [1]Peter wrote 2 Peter as a member of the new dispensation after Paul's salvation, fully under Paul's gospel, or
      [2]Paul has eternally condemned Peter and his gospel. A su-implication of this is that 2 Peter must be removed from the canon since, though written in the new dispensation, it proclaims the older dispensation's way of being saved. One cannot compare it to the OT and say that it shows us what life under the older dispensation was like since Peter writes it in the new dispensation, thereby misleading and decieving the readers as to the way to be saved in the new dispensation.
        Looking at Rev. 1:10, is it possible that John was referring to the "Day of the Lord" and not a Sunday?

        Isn't what John is describing in Revelation the "Day of the Lord" and the time near it?

        I always hear people say that Sunday is the "Lord's Day" (maybe using this verse?), but can this idea really be supported Biblically?

        There is a phenomena in Scripture called the "now/not yet" phenomena where the Biblical writers often, in almost the same breath, say an event is done, and then say we are waiting for the event to be done. Some examples are:

        The Kingdom of heaven: Christ says it was among them right then (Matthew 12:28, Luke 17:21), but then also said that they were waiting for it (Matthew 6:10, Luke 21:31)

        The Adoption: Paul says that we have now received the spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15), and John says that we are now children of God (1 John 3:2), but Paul also says that we are waiting for the adoption (Romans 8:23, see also 1 John 3:2)

        Salvation: We have been saved (Eph 2:8, 2 Tim. 1:9), we are being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, Phil 2:12-13), we are waiting to be saved (Acts 15:11, 1 Peter 1:9)

        Glorification: We have already been glorified by virtue of being elected and justified (Romans 8:30) and we will be glorified after we have suffered for Christ (Romans 8:16)
        Eternal Life: We have it now (John 6:47), we are waiting for it (Mark 10:30)

        Judgment: the world has been judged (John 12:31), the world is being judged (Matthew 25), the world will be judged (Matthew 12:41, Hebrews 9:27)

        Death: It has been abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), it will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26)

        So, these types of events are progressive and consummational. The late David Chilton described it in this manner: "This introduces another basic Biblical pattern, a threefold pattern... Scripture presents salvation in terms of a definitive-progressive-final structure, and this is why Biblical prophecies often seem to overlap. Salvation was definitely accomplished in the perfect, finished work of Christ; it is progressively and increasingly applied during this age, personally and institutionally; and it will be finally achieved, in its highest fulfillment, at the end of history on the Last Day."
        In my mind, these are the two texts that sweep away any anticipation of a future millennium because they teach we are in Christ's Davidic kingdom now.

        1 Corinthians 15
        " 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

        24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God
        , even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power.

        25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. Ps. 110.1

        26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

        27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. Ps. 8.6

        28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
        "

        These verses so clearly teach that there is no future millennium Notice the end of verse 23--"...Christ's at his coming, THEN comes the END." At Christ's coming comes the END, not the start of a tribulation or the start of a millennium. When Christ comes, He gives the kingdom TO God. He does not then receive it from the Father. Verse 25 says that he must reign till all his enemies are put under his feet, and verse 23 tells us that WHEN HE COMES BACK, ALL WILL HAVE BEEN PUT DOWN! The only logical conclusion is that He is reigning now. We do not need to wait for an earthly kingdom in which he will put down all rule; he is doing that NOW. When he comes back, it will have been done, accomplished. Now to the next text...


        Acts 2

        " 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Ps. 89.3, 4 ; 132.11

        31 he
        , seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

        32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

        33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

        34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
        The LORD said unto my Lord,
        Sit thou on my right hand,


        35 until I make thy foes thy footstool. Ps. 110.1

        36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
        "

        David knew that he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, and the next verse tells us that HE SPOKE CONCERNING CHRIST'S RESURRECTION. Christ was raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father, receiving his kingdom. (Daniel 7:13-14). We are told that Christ being on David's throne happened in the first century. There is no need to look for a future, earthly, Davidic throne! Christ is already on it. Then verse 32 just caps the whole argument. Verse 30, David knew God would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, and then verse 32: THIS JESUS GOD HAS RAISED UP! Christ has already been raised up to sit on David's throne. How much clearer can it be? He specifically says, THIS JESUS GOD HAS RAISED UP. Christ is on the Davidic throne NOW, and he will continue to reign till his enemies are put under his feet.
    • LittleToe
      LittleToe

      Interesting thread - I'll be keeping my eye on it...

    • integ
      integ

      Interposing the weedlike Obadiah sub-class upon the prophecy of Balaam, we see an interesting foregleam of the anti-typical Joab prophecy and it's thrilling fullfillment in the chaffling, ant-typical, Boazite prohecy, which obviously reached it's conclusion in 1914. This is timely indeed. That's why the loving provision of dis-fellowshipping is a just course of action for the chaffling, ant-typical, Boazite- Melchizadek joint class, and it's a-typical supercalifragilisticexpoliodocious class and their respective forebears.

      Integ.

    • JosephMalik
      JosephMalik

      Integ,

      You forgot the Amen.

      Joseph

    • RubaDub
      RubaDub

      Great thread ...

      It really makes the '70 weeks of years" prophesy come to life in my minds eye.

      ***** Rub a Dub

    • IronGland
      IronGland

      Thanks for the kind comments

    • LittleToe
      LittleToe

      btttt, coz I'd hate JCAnon to miss this...

    Share this

    Google+
    Pinterest
    Reddit