I'm sorry KaleboutWest but you are totally wrong, I read many Jewish commentaries and they treat these dates as literal. Can you kindly provide direct quotations from ancient texts?
Were the life spans of the patriarchs just an allegory of astronomical cycles?
by was a new boy 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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KalebOutWest
I'm Jewish. I went to 10 years of Hebrew school.
I may be an exJW but I wasn't born in. I just gave you several Jewish texts to look up. I have my Talmud and my entire Sefaria library at hand. Which commentaries are you talking about?
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Anony Mous
@raymond franz: nearly ALL the Bible writers are actually much closer to us than they are to the events that they reported happened, especially when it comes to the Old Testament.
The oldest books we know off were written ~500BC, with likely ancestor books and oral stories going back thousands of years which in itself were already talking about events before their time. So a book that's 2500 years old, is talking about events that supposedly happened 5000-10000 years before it.
The Prophets are the first real 'historical' writings, which although still largely allegorical started being written ~300 years after the Babylonian siege of Jersualem. Only the New Testament was written ~70-200 years after the purported events happened (post Jerusalem's destruction), a lot closer but still 1-2 generations of "telephone".
Beyond that, we then have over 1500 years worth of copies and translations with various details added or removed and a lot of stories are actually taken from other cultures, eg. the figure of Jesus in Summarian mythology predates "Jesus H. Christ" about 6500 years.
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Anony Mous
As far as the other question, nearly all the numbers and names in the Bible are allegorical or spiritistic/mystic in nature.
From Genesis to Revelation is based on various number systems that were mostly lost to time. Many Bible researchers, but going back even further, the practice of Kaballah attempts to rediscover the relationships between the letters/words and the numbers (eg. 666 = NRON QSR or Caesar Nero in Greek)
Various Babylonians also used similar number systems that were well documented (they used a 12-based number system, so a lot of stories will surround the number 12).
The ages of the patriarchs from Adam to Moses add up to 12,600 the sum of its digits is 9 and has 72 positive divisors. Hey, look all those numbers mean something - Jesus appeared 9 times after resurrection from when he was dead for 72 hours and quite a few other 'coincidences' around those numbers throughout the Bible. 1260, a time, two times, and half a time [3½ years] using the ancient calendar system, also how long Jesus preached etc etc.
When it comes to names, the interesting thing is that names have meanings that if you put them together spell out poetry. Eg. the 12 tribes of Israel in order of birth, likely a mnemonic that was used for the transfer of the stories in oral or song form.
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KalebOutWest
And you know, Raymond Frantz, I'm not asking to get into a debate with a non-Jew who is telling a Jew:
"You are totally wrong."
I mean, that is kinda weird.
Where did you go to school to learn Judaism? What is your Jewish name? Did you know that English is not my first language? Guess what is? Do you speak that language? I bet you don't.
But I lost a lot of people, a lot of family in the Shoah who can no longer speak for themselves.
Scripture and our tradition is very important to us. The Watchtower warps it. If you want to think we Jews are wrong, fine. Go ahead. I don't know what your standards are for judging Jews for thinking that or what makes you think you know better than Jews to understand our own teachings.
I don't have time to discuss anymore because the Days of Awe are upon us, the High Holy Days start tomorrow, with Rosh Hoshanah. I have things to do.
But I am glad you think I, a Jew, am wrong. Kind of warped, but Shana Tova to you never the less.
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EasyPrompt
@KalebOutWest...
If you can't figure out that Jesus was the Messiah from the scriptures, then no wonder you can't figure out that the patriarchs actually did live as long as the Bible says they did.
You don't have faith in God's Word, that's why you don't understand it.
If God can make a tree live a thousand years, then He can make a man live a thousand years.
God doesn't lie. Faithful Jews are aware of that, that's why faithful Jews recognize Jesus as the Messiah instead of following the God-dishonoring traditions of men and persecuting God's friends.
John 8:31-47
"Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
"They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have been slaves to anyone. How is it you say, ‘You will become free’?”
"Jesus answered them: “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin. Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free. I know that you are Abraham’s offspring. But you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.”
"In answer they said to him: “Our father is Abraham.”
"Jesus said to them: “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You are doing the works of your father.”
"They said to him: “We were not born from immorality; we have one Father, God.”
"Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”"
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EasyPrompt
Desirousofchange said: "Maybe because there is nothing to substantiate lifetimes of 100's of years? (You do recall that if there are not TWO WITNESSES, it didn't happen.)"
KalebOutWest said: "Jews have never believed this information was ever literal."
Jesus talked about Adam and Noah and Moses as literal people, not allegorical. (Jesus was Jewish.)
Luke gave the genealogical line of the Messiah all the way back to Adam. (Luke was Jewish.)
Paul spoke of Melchizedek. (Paul was Jewish.) Jude talked of Enoch. (Jude was Jewish.)
Faithful Jews believed that the accounts were literal.
Jude 14,15
"Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, Eʹnoch, also prophesied about them when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.”"
Enoch lived 365 years. His words regarding liars in that day came true when God sent the Flood, and they will come true again when God destroys those who knowingly and willing spread lies about Him with the goal of undermining the faith of others.
God is Love, and He is also the God of Truth. The lifetimes of men recorded in the Bible are true and accurate reports. Those with faith know these things to be true.
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EasyPrompt
KalebOutWest said: "Where did you go to school to learn Judaism? What is your Jewish name? Did you know that English is not my first language? Guess what is? Do you speak that language? I bet you don't."
Hebrew is not the language of God. Love is.
Zephaniah 3:9
"For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language,
So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah,
To serve him shoulder to shoulder."
Many people here speak that language of love, including RaymondFrantz.
You, KalebOutWest, don't seem to know much about that language though.
There are some things I can see that you know how to do very well...
Proverbs 6:16-19
"There are six things that Jehovah hates;
Yes, seven things that he detests:
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart plotting wicked schemes, and feet that run quickly to evil,
A false witness who lies with every breath,
And anyone sowing contentions among brothers."
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Vidiot
KalebOutWest - “…Jews have never believed this information was ever literal…”
Super important, and, IMO, can never be repeated enough…
…that the people originally responsible for the Bible’s very existence viewed it as metaphor.
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mikeflood
Ohh..now that I remember, Adan was 130 years old when he fathered first....maybe it was a very exciting life for waiting all those years...never mind it contradict all archeological findings.. an explanation please.