Do you find Watchtower as Looney as Jim Jones?

Foolednomore

Forbid the universe for the mass suicide of many. But with the no blood policy, the constant call to be loyal to the Org no matter how looney it seems, just very dangerous to any normal thinking person. Do you think something is up? Or just crazy stupidity?

Simon

It's not as concentrated crazy or immediately dangerous, but all mainstream religions have some pretty mental ideas when you step back and think about it.

I'm not sure you'll get agreement on how many may have died due to the WTS teachings, and whether it's a net loss of life vs those they help prevent.

But the JWs are not at the same level of "cult" as what most people imagine a cult to be ("heavens gate" type).

Maybe if we measured things in potential life-years lost, it would be more clear-cut - you don't have to have been killed to have years of your life taken away.

Foolednomore

I fear for my family that are still in. Watchtower is pretty Damn crazy. Not surprises me at this day and age. I know Watchtower is working to suck it's members dry on any cash they have.

Simon

But "convince people to drink poison" crazy? That's so immediate and direct.

The WTS definitely has a strong influence on many and promotes being faithful to the point of death, but the death part is never intentionally sought out.

But factoring in the volume of people they impact, they may well be worse (but then we're into small percentages of big numbers always produce those kinds of results).

Las Malvinas son Argentinas

If you are interested in Jones, I highly recommend "Raven" by Tim Reiterman. Tim was one of the reporters who was shot on the tarmac in Guyana by Jones loyalists. Jones was a sadist who held trials for small animals as a child and sentenced them all to death. And contrary to the common narrative, Jones never believed in Christ or Christianity. He was an avowed Marxist from day one and only used the church as a ruse to gather black followers.

I think he's an outlier and comparisons made to him are often unfair. There certain qualities that Jones and other cults share, such as Jones' diatribes against defectors and control of his adherent's personal lives.

Foolednomore

Good point! I hope my family see what a waste of time and life being a Jw is. I sure found it out. I can't understand why people can't figure this out. Watchtower offers something that no way you can cash, not worth the paper it's printed on, yet it was sold. What a fraud.

Sea Breeze

I'm not sure you'll get agreement on how many may have died due to the WTS teachings, and whether it's a net loss of life vs those they help prevent.
But the JWs are not at the same level of "cult" as what most people imagine a cult to be ("heavens gate" type).

Only 909 people died at Jonestown, a third of them children. The Watchtower is an apex predator killing machine compared to them. Think about it:

1. Deaths due to blood ban

2. Deaths and suicides due to drug overdoses to try and deal with the pain of lost family

3. Imprisonments due to loss of trust in authority figures (Satan runs to governments)

4. Deaths and suicides due to depression

5. Deaths and suicides due to alcoholism

6. Deaths due to rejecting National allegiances as appropriately allowed in Christianity.

7. Deaths due to organ transplant ban.

8. Deaths and suicides from the belief that when you die your sins are forgiven.

I watched the testimony of a young woman the other day (pioneer sister) who told the tale of what happened to her when she tried to leave the org. Her parents took her to therapist after therapist trying to figure out what was wrong with her. Finally they took her to a JW Psychiatrist who prescribed her powerful anti-schizophrenia medication.

It totally zonked her out. In one of her drug induced stupors, she asked her dad if he was proud of what he was doing to her. He admitted that it truly bothered him, but he didn't know what else to do. She escaped her home and moved in with a disfellowshipped aunt who was into new age stuff. Her adult son (cousin) then raped her. She would go to work early everyday just so she could have a quiet place to cry. She married the first guy who showed her some sympathy at work. You guessed it... more victimization and abuse in their marriage and eventual divorce, but now with two kids to care for. She eventually trusted in God as a Christian and has since remarried to a wonderful man. Married 6 years now with one child of their own.

I know an unbaptized (and doubting) young man who was encouraged and pressured by his JW father to marry a newly separated (non-baptized JW) 16 year old girl when he was only 17. Her JW parents had previously allowed her to marry a convicted murderer, so that she wouldn't die at Armageddon for having sex outside of marriage. (She had sex with a school coach at 14 and they found out). Instead of seeing this as rape, the parents saw her as a fornicator and allowed her to marry her new boyfriend - an ex-convict biker she met in the neighborhood. She was only 14 when they married. Her new husband had shot his first wife in the face with a shotgun. The JW parents had to give written consent at this age for her to marry.

The young man eventually became a Christian, remarried and successfully raised two more sons who are excellent examples of character and citizenship. Marriage still in tact after 18 years.

Simon, I don't know if you were a born-in JW or not. But, I have noticed that there is usually a big difference in perception between the born-ins and others whose joined later than birth. 3rd and 4th gens have it the worst IMO.

Simon

Simon, I don't know if you were a born-in JW or not.

I was born in, 3rd generation.

I don't doubt that there are many people who will blame all their woes on the WTS and some of those will of course be valid, but if we look at things objectively we have to also factor in the positives:

There will be people alive who wouldn't be without the religion because it provided the community or crutch they needed.

There will be people who didn't suffer from tainted blood transfusions.

There will be people who didn't die from drugs or aids or whatever.

The number of people in the general population who receive organ transplants is vanishingly small so the intersection of JWs needing them is likely infinitesimally tiny.

I watched the testimony of a young woman the other day (pioneer sister) who told the tale of what happened to her when she tried to leave the org. Her parents took her to therapist after therapist trying to figure out what was wrong with her. Finally they took her to a JW Psychiatrist who prescribed her powerful anti-schizophrenia medication

Anecdotes like this have me wondering the age of the girl and therefore whether it's poor life choices or bad parenting. The other examples sound like made-for-TV lives straight out of the Jerry Springer show. They are certainly not typical and nothing like the JWs I came across. They sound like inventions to push the "and then became a Christian" agenda. Do you really know them? What are their names, what cities do they live in? Or is it "I heard of someone once", because those things are rarely real - they are invented caricatures.

Yes, the WTS has some influence, but at some point people have to take personal responsibility for their decisions, including whether to allow someone else to make them.

I know some people don't like these kind of opinions, but "we have to blame the WTS for everything" is too simplistic, easy to debunk and then just makes all valid criticism look weak, like an obsessive ex trying to tell the world all manner of faults.

Sea Breeze

Yes, I have personally met both individuals. One in Florida and the other in Texas.

I personally know one young man who ended up in prison for murder in a drug deal gone bad. The family came to our house every Tuesday night for book study. He was the son of a prominent ministerial servant.

Another elder's son I know of was found in a dumpster. Don't know what happened there.

Another young man I knew growing up died of Aids. He was a raging hypersexual young man. He was an elders son.

Another elder's son I grew up with is a practicing Warloc (male witch).

I think I forgot to mention that my mother died from not being able to get a blood transfusion.

Also, a prominent ex-jw internet activist (Smurf Girl) recently posted something about her JW uncle killing a couple other family members.

I wished I could not remember most of the stuff I know about JW's. I have tons more that I would rather not relate.

Simon

Sounds like you were a real jinx to JWs in the area! LOL

Do you find Watchtower as Looney as Jim Jones?

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