The article 'ho' in Jn 1:1c

by grzesiek32 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

JosephMalik

Did the Father share his glory with the Son? Jo. 17:5

Ellderwho,

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Where does this verse say that? What the verse clearly states is ?the glory which I had with thee.? This appeal for a resurrection does not prove somehow that the Father shares his glory with the Son. The Son had a glory in His own right and this is what was restored by the Father.

Would Yahweh share his glory with a created being? Isa. 42:8

OT texts are often used to contradict changes in the faith made as man progressed through time. Thus the Law was used to contradict the life saving properties of Christ?s blood and was still considered by many including some apostles for a time as essential for salvation. The apostle Paul struggled with such reasoning for most of his ministry. Things change, the faith advances and you have no point to make here regardless. Can you even describe what such glory entails in detail? How do you know you are talking about the same glory? There is no point to this argument unless you can provide scriptural proof of some kind.
Joseph
Surreptitious

Oh, I thought this thread was about prostitutes.
Kenneson

Joseph replies: "The verses that you offer in evidence all point to this time in the future when such angels will be provided for these tasks."
It seems to me that the angels were always at Jesus' disposal. Even in his humanity, angels ministered to him (Matt. 4:11) and ( Mark 1:13) They are his angels way before his second coming.
As to your interpetation of Col. 1:15-16 that this is referring to humans and human governments, that is only partially true. Verse 16 indicates not only the things visible were created by Jesus but those invisible as well, which would include angels.
JosephMalik

It seems to me that the angels were always at Jesus' disposal. Even in his humanity, angels ministered to him (Matt. 4:11) and ( Mark 1:13) They are his angels way before his second coming.
Kenneson,
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
And you prove this how Kenneson? Did Jesus call them to minister to him or did his Father do that? This is no different then angels send to assist humanity in times past. Where they the angels of the ones assisted or were they the Fathers property? Even angels put under the Sons command and thus his angels does not demonstrate that the Son created them does it? All this has already been clearly shown.
You said: As to your interpretation of Col. 1:15-16 that this is referring to humans and human governments, that is only partially true. Verse 16 indicates not only the things visible were created by Jesus but those invisible as well, which would include angels.
The context of such texts was also shown and nowhere are angels being discussed in such texts. It is only one?s imagination and the false teaching pre-planted in the minds of many that interpret texts in this way. Invisibility suggests distance such as Rome where such invisible heavens controlled the lives of the Colossians. How many have personally seen the President of their country. Yet their lives are influenced by such heavens. Governments were created for the Christ under God?s direct command to maintain order on this planet until the kingdom under Christ is established here on earth, Romans 13:1-6. Such governments are real, human, yet invisible to most of the people ruled by them. The blood of Christ was not shed for the benefit of invisible angels if that is what you believe?
Joseph
ellderwho

Joseph,
You never answered my question.
You say:
does not prove somehow that the Father shares his glory with the Son.
It does not disprove either. Thus in Jo. 17:5 When Jesus states " and now, glorify thou me together (or with thou) with thyself, Father...." Nas.
If Jesus is together with the father in some way "in the bosom" I would say that he is together with the Father.
You state
The Son had a glory in His own right and this is what was restored by the Father.
Show from scripture this idea of "glory in his own right" and where the scripture teaches this.
You ask me to prove if I can show from scripture the qualities of "such glory" or if I can differentiate where such glory would be applied. This is not my burden it is yours. Simply stated as the Bible does Jesus had glory with the Father.
And your telling me yeah but it was a diferent kind of glory.
JosephMalik

elderwho,
I answered your questions. No need to go over this again.
Joseph
Kenneson

Joseph states: "The blood of Christ was not shed for the benefit of invisible angels if this is what you believe?"
Are you positive of that? How do we know what will be the outcome of the judgment of the disobedient angels on the great day? Apparently they have not yet received their final reward because they await the Great Assize. See Jude 8. Perhaps Jesus has indeed reconciled to himself all things whether upon earth or in heaven (including these angels). Col. 1:20
Whether the Colossians had ever seen the ruler of Rome or not (and how do you know he never visited Colossae?) doesn't mean that they didn't know about him. His visible representatives in their province and city and his visible soldiers to uphold his decrees and Roman law were convincing enough. Would the people of Rome have doubted his visibility? Nor does distance for invisibility make. And that applies to any government. Although I did not personally see the President on his visit here, countless others did. And I know there is federal government no matter how far I live from its seat. I don't agree with your interpretation of things in heaven and invisible as applying to humans and governments. Human governments are those things on earth and are indeed visible. Colossians is making a contrast between two types of things, whereas your intrepretation allows for only one.
drwtsn32

Oh, I thought this thread was about prostitutes.
Ok, we think way too much alike....
Kenneson

Typo: That should be Jude 6.
AGuest

at those among earthling man who say they know God, or know Christ, or possess holy spirit... and yet, deny the very RIGHT of that spirit to teach them ALL things... and continue searching, researching, reading and rereading... the Bible... the scriptures... the false stylus of the secretaries... the miscopyings of scribes... etc., etc., etc.
Why do you continue to make knowing God so DIFFICULT for yourselves?
Do you not know... have you not heard... have you not READ... that to know the SON... is to know the Father? That you cannot come TO the Father... without going THROUGH the Son?
Why do you continue to take the "broad and spacious" road... rather than simply enter through the "narrow gate"... the DOOR... that is Christ?
The WAY... that is Christ... is OPEN... dear ones - GO THROUGH HIM... and HE will teach you all things!
You will no longer need to ponder. You will no longer need to speculate. You will no longer need to debate. Why? Because... YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH!! And that TRUTH... the SON... will SET YOU FREE!!
And yet, the Spirit says to me now... just as I am writing... that you search... and research... and debate... and speculate... and contend... on matters such as these... because you WANT to - you are "loving" it!
It would just be too simple... to easy... to live... by means of FAITH... faith in what you HEAR... from the Son of God... faith that you RECEIVE from the Son of God... the "life-giving" spirit... who is the HOLY SPIRIT that was first sent in the flesh... and now is "with" us... all the days... as a SPIRIT. He is a spirit and so it is to YOUR spirit... that he speaks! Hear HIM... and you will know all that your heart is questioning...
Or... continue on... contending, debating, inflicting upon yourselves unnecessary confusion. It will be as you wish... whatever it is you wish: to be free... or continue enslaved.
Dear ones... in our fleshly endeavors to be "right"... we will almost certainly be wrong. Because we keep trying to explain by means of flesh and things that are fleshly... including what is written... that which is of the spirit. If, then, you truly want to know the things of the spirit... then it is with your spirit that you must get to know them. For such things are foolishness to the physical man... and, thus, he CANNOT get to know them.
1 Corinthians 2:11-4
If then, you are still "searching"... it is because you have not yet been "found" by the Christ... nor have you found him. For if you had been found... and you had found him... you would have become ONE SPIRIT with him... and by means of such... come to know HIS mind. For by means of God's spirit, HIS spirit... would "bear witness" with YOUR spirit. By means of knowing HIS mind, then... you would know the truth... regarding ALL of the things written. For all of them... bear witness about him.
1 Corinthians 2:16; John 5:39
You have not yet found him... because you keep "searching" for him... in places where he is not. The Jews were told from where he would appear... and those who put faith in that... "saw" him... and found him. And thus, they were found BY him.
We, too, have been told "where" he will appear: IN us. The Daystar is to rise... IN OUR HEARTS! But... because such is not a physical manifestation... one that can be discerned by our physical eyes and ears... and those of others... we deny this truth: we lack the FAITH... that is necessary to make it so.
God... is a SPIRIT. Christ... is a SPIRIT. And thus, they must be WORSHIPPED... in SPIRIT.
Your flesh can only worship according to the Law Covenant, which Covenant was given FOR THE FLESH. But that Law, that Covenant... was removed by our Lord... impaled with HIS flesh... so as to make a way for a NEW Covenant... one binding NOT the flesh... but the SPIRIT.
And what is the spirit? It is the "man" you are... INSIDE... in your HEART! Not the one you present to your family. Not the one you present to your neighbors and co-workers. That "man"... "hides" the TRUE man that you are... inside. But such true "man" is NOT hidden from God... nor is it hidden from Christ. For that is the "man" that you TRULY are... the one you don't want most people to know and see. He is the "man" that your flesh HIDES... the one in control of your TRUE heart.
It is with THIS man that you must worship God; it is with HIS "eyes" and "ears" that you must see and hear... and it is with his open heart... that you must approach... through the Son.
There is... no other Way.
If, then, you consider yourself a part of that New Covenant... then STOP trying to fulfill it with your flesh. STOP trying to honor it with your flesh. STOP trying to hear its "laws"... with your flesh. Learn, then, to fulfill it... honor it... and HEAR it... by means of your SPIRIT. For it is a law, NOT for the physical man... but for the SPIRIT man. (And no, this does not mean the "spiritual" man that is pious, religious, or "faithful" as religion states it is; rather, it is the man that is "spiritual" by means of having be "regenerated" by means of God's spirit, holy spirit, awaiting a BIRTH... as a spirit being. The "seed"... of the Woman, Jerusalem Above, and her husbandly owner, JAH of Armies... through Christ... as part of the child that Christ and His Body... will become.)
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the MOST Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and the peace... and spirit... of His Son and Christ, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... be upon you... if you so wish it.
Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with them... and a slave of Christ,
SJ

The article 'ho' in Jn 1:1c

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