Questions about Rahab....

by ralmo 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  ralmo

  Hi all!

  My sister used the example of Rahab as a source of comfort to her. You see she believes that by her faith that perhaps I will somehow be saved during Armaggedon as Rahab's family was spared the destruction of Jericho. I told her that I did not recall any support for that belief from my time in the organization. While I recognize that in the bible Rahab's faith caused her to be spared I do not recall any modern day application in regards to her family being spared other than those tailored towards bringing your family members into the organization. Is anyone aware of anything like this? It is my understanding that according to the JW doctrine unless you are a witness during this time you will not be spared.... This was also a refute from her when I argued that the destruction of 6 Billion people, myself included, was not something that witnesses should view as a source of encouragement when they are trying endure the "hardships of this system of things". (Why is it that life is such a terrrible thing for the JW's??) I welcome any thoughts regarding this question.

  Thank you,

  Ralmo
• 

  Yerusalyim

  RALMO,

  Welcome to the board...I know I should be nice...but the first thing that came to mind is..."so your sister turned to prostitution to save you from Armagedon?"
• 

  peacefulpete

  Apart from the fictional nature of the Rahab in Jericho story which is another topic, your question is more about how JWs devalue human life so greatly so as to hanker for the day when god kills 99.9% o the earth's population. It would be helpful to understand how thought reform shapes a cult member's world view. Go to the American Family Foundation web site. Read the articles linked there about identifying cults and the methods of control used by them. Ultimately some sort of devaluing, dehumanizing of those outside the group results from the elitist, privileged mind set that is an essential characteristic of high control groups (cults). Those outside are seen only as potential converts not loving people. Love is only offered to them on condition they join and to the extent they conform to the rules of the group. A family situation often creates inner turmoil like what you are describing. Loyalties are being split. Most often the resolution decided is to shut out the outsider more completely to avoid the pain of conflict. To avoid this, it is recomended we be the ones to end conversations first before they become awkward. Call or write only when we have something of an excuse to but do it often (weekly)just keep it brief. Never press issues or try to convince them they are beng misled. If they ask you why you are not with them, understand that they don't really want to know they are just voicing their confusion. You will score huge points if you say simply that it's not why you called and share the news you intended in the first place. If there ever is a time when they are having questions they will likely initiate the conversation by expressing their own concerns, then gently introducing something that you also observed is appropriate. When you are communicating always be happy and tell about the fun or constructive projects your involved in. In time they may become confortable with you again in your new life. Then if the JW thing ever stops 'working' for them they will have a place to go. You. Accept that most will never leave. There is no magic pill or perfect fact that can persuade a person from that which appears to them to be the only hope and life's whole meaning. Those that do leave will do so because the system failed THEM and disillusionment set in. It may well take years for even these to separate fully from the group. Never forget that your sister loves you, she just can't at the present time think for herself. It's like a drug addict or alchoholic, something is doing the decision making for them.
• 

  BluesBrother

  I guess she is trying to rationalise the hard message of the WT, as against her natural love for you, and her human decency.

  Here is the dilemma. The WT teaches that "God is love" but also teaches that He will destroy slaughter all of us family members unless we return to the fold. Is that what they call a dichotomy? She cannot reconcile the two teachings and reaches for apparent paralells in scripture. There are others of course, like Lot's daughters

  I have the same difficulty with family. We all know that the WT preaches death to all outsiders. But when pushed, the dubs I know will deny it . They use the fuzzy wording around a future application of Matt 25.41 and not pre judging others. In fact they tell me I had it wrong all the time.. although they happily study the books that say the opposite. Confused? , so am I

  I guess she is clutching at straws
• 

  blondie

  Actually, it sounds like she misapplied this account per the WTS.

  The WTS has always emphasized that the only family that survived were those who were under Rahab's roof protected by the scarlet cord hanging outisde the window. I remember a drama that showed her trying to get her relatives to be there. Some never did come in and scoffed and were destroyed. Some did but left at the last minute and were destroyed. The WTS compared this to becoming associated with the congregation and staying in it.

  w69 10/1 p. 594 A Prophetic Pattern for Our Day

  In these dangerous "last days," the "great crowd" must act in cooperation with the anointed remnant of Christ?s brothers and for the protection of them. Moreover, they have an urgent responsibility to teach still others. This is well pictured by Rahab?s harboring the spies and sending them away to a safe hideout in the mountains, as well as in her subsequent zealous action on behalf of her family. But one thing more was required! Rahab had let the spies down from her window by a rope. This "cord of scarlet thread" may have been the same cord that the spies instructed Rahab to tie in her window. Those gathered to her house must remain under the protection of that scarlet thread, not going out lest they incur death, their blood being on their own heads.

  After the departure of the spies, Rahab must have intensified her efforts in behalf of her household. As a non-Israelite, she would have to make a personal dedication to Jehovah, just like the "great crowd" who cooperate so zealously with the anointed remnant of spiritual Israel in today?s earth-wide Bible education campaign. Probably you are one of these, and you may even have had the thrilling experience of leading some of your own family to safety, through a home Bible study. Or you may have studied with others who have become your "brothers and sisters and mothers and children" in a spiritual way, with the hope of everlasting life in the coming system of things. (Mark 10:30) All of you who have been gathered in dedication to Jehovah through Christ, keep exercising faith on the basis of Jesus? shed blood. It will mean your salvation, just as the "scarlet cord" spelled out salvation to Rahab and her household!?Josh. 2:17-21; 1 John 1:7.
• 

  ralmo

  Thank you Blondie! Where there any more recent applications? I remember that drama as welll and that is how I remembered it. I have a feeling I am going to have many more of this sort of discussion with various members of my family... Do you have a suggestions regarding research? Unfortunately in my zeal to no longer be a JW I trashed most of my library...now for the most part I have to go on memory when discussing these things. I was thinking getting a couple of JW cd's. (Don't think they would appreciate me quoting from Crisis of the Conscience!) Any secular texts or research aids you can recommend would be helpful.

  Thank you,

  Ralmo
• 

  LittleToe

  Some Christian groups apply 1Cor.7:14 in this way, but I'm not aware of the JW's doing so.
• 

  blondie

  The WTS emphasizes that children would be protected but note this explanation of what "age" the child stops being protected by their parents "good standing."

  w87 4/15 12-13 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism

  
  Should even youths consider baptism? Well, recall that Jehovah told the six armed men in the vision: "Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women you should kill off?to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near." (Ezekiel 9:6) Of course, children too young to make a dedication would be protected by a parent?s "mark" if that parent is striving to bring the children up to love Jehovah and if they are obediently responding. (1 Corinthians 7:14) Yet, if a child is intelligent enough to make a personal decision and has reached the point where he "knows how to do what is right," do not presume that he will continue indefinitely under the merit of his parent?s "mark."?James 4:17.

  Seeing accounts of 5 and 6 year olds being baptzied, that means only children under 5 are protected by their parent(s) good standing before God.

  (Pardon the JW languaged)
• 

  AGuest

  may you have peace.

  Your sister is correct: by means of faith, some have... and will... save their entire households, excluding those who simply refuse to heed whatever minor instructions may go along with such salvation. I give you:

  Noah (his faith resulted in salvation not only to his wife and sons, but the wives of his sons, as well)

  Lot (his faith saved both daughters; could have saved sons-in-laws, but they wouldn't go, and could have saved wife, but she failed to heed to warning against looking back)

  Moses (his faith saved millions of Israelites as well as Egyptians; unfortunately, their contention due to a lack of faith resulted in the loss of many of their lives)

  Rahab (her faith saved all those in her household who followed the instructions, including in-laws, etc.)

  Cornelius (by means of his faith, all of his household and other sundry relatives, received the blessing of holy spirit)

  It has always been this way: a man's faith can "atone" for his household... with the exception of those who deliberately disobey an instruction that could mean life... or those who willingly deny such salvation.

  That is why it is upon us ALL... to seek God's favor... not by works of the Law, but by works of faith, because by doing so, we can save not only ourselves, but our households.

  This has been one of the "themes" since Adam: Adam was entrusted with the safety of ALL of earthling man... but for his own desire... he delivered up ALL of earthling man, rather than gave his life to keep them safe. In contrast, the Christ... gave HIS own life... to save all of ours. He fulfilled the Law so as to RELEASE us all from the "wage" which Adam brought upon us. We, then, are OBLIGATED... if not for our fellowman, then for our loved ones... to try and seek God's mercy... on our own behalf and their. Through Christ... this can be done.

  Thus, the "work" I do is for the sake of:

  1. My love of God, for I now know Him to actually BE love, contrary of what the writings of the Jews and others may portray;

  2. My love of His Christ, for by means of him and his life and teachings, I have come to know how God truly is, for he bore witness TO that truth in what he did, didn't do, said and taught;

  3. My love of my children and family, that perhaps by my faith, they will be shown mercy;

  4. My love of my "neighbor"... including all of you here... for whom I pray and seek mercy constantly, whether you desire it or not, because I do not do it because you all ask for it... but because I "want" to - I understand you because I was "there" once before, too; and

  5. My love of self, in that God has called me through His Son... and because they consider me worthy to bear the "torture stake" of my Lord so as to grant me to suffer for HIS sake by going to all that he sends me and sharing with them what he directs me to... even in the face of much ridicule and persecution... almost unbearable at times... I know that I am doing a work that, while heavy and fearful now... may save my children... and myself... but just having the privilege of being a "good-for-nothing-slave" during this time... is quite exciting... and so is enough...

  Many of us... like Adam... have "learned" to think only of ourselves. We are not concerned for any others, particularly our children, so that our "worship" is actually quite self-serving. But the man Job was different: he knew he had little or no control over what his children did or thought or didn't do or think. Yet, he showed his love for them, one, by not giving up HIS integrity, and two, by taking on the RESPONSIBILITY of acting as "priest" on behalf of his entire household, thus making supplications not for himself only, but for his children as well:

  "And it would occur that when the banquet days and gone round the circuit, Job would send and sanctify THEM; and he got up early in the morning and offer up burnt sacrifices according to the number of ALL of them; for, said Job, 'MAYBE my sons have sinned and have cursed God in their heart.' THat is the way Job would do always."

  So Job did not limit he pleas to God for his own benefit - he also remembered to seek mercy for his children as well. And so did Rahab, her children and her entire household. Noah, Abraham, Lot, Cornelius... all did so.

  And we can and should do so, too. For God HEARS the prayers of the "righteous"... and the "righteous" are NOT those who are perfect... but those... who EXERCISE FAITH.

  I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  skiz

  AGuest,
  How does this version of God react to the concept of justice ?

  Your sister is correct: by means of faith, some have... and will... save their entire households, excluding those who simply refuse to heed whatever minor instructions may go along with such salvation. I give you:

  So if I have a family member that believes Jesus is the Messiah, I can hold their hand when God destroys everyone else like me that doesn't have faith but ...
  If I don't have a family member to provide that hand, then I'm toast ?

  Does your God ever use logic when delevoping his plan of action ?

  David