What do the soul do after death? Problems with puctuation.

by krzysiek 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • krzysiek
    krzysiek

    39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
    40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
    42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. [6] "
    43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

    JWs say the last sentence should be: "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

    cause the comma was inserted improperly by catholics - after the word "truth" instead of "today".

    It is to confirm their allegation that the soul doesn't go to haeven after man's death.

    I find this very strange. When talking to someone do yoy say: "I tell you today"? It'd mean you say also: "I tell you yesterday" or "I tell you tomorrow" When you turn to someone and speak to him it's o b v i o u s that's today. There is no sense to add the word "today". It'd be illogical. So, it's reasonable to put comma after the word "truth" and the meaning of that is that that day the criminal went to haeven along with Jesus. It means what JWs teach us about soul is wrong.

  • blondie
  • elamona
    elamona

    I don't think that Jesus meant that "you will be with me in paradise today" as that would have been wrong as Jesus stayed in the grave for the better part of 3 days and wasn't in paradise the day that He died. So that may have been one of the few times the WTBTS got it right. But then again, He may have been using a figure of speech to let the criminal know that his repentant attitude assured his a place in paradise. I'm not sure what happens to the "soul" upon death. Some scriptures read like it "rests" in the grave until being resurrected others read like it returns to God. It doesn't really matter that much to me- I trust that God will take care of me in the way that is most appropriate to Him. I don't like to get hung up on little or fuzzy details that may not make much or any difference in the ultimate outcome of my existence and where I will be.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    I think he said.... Truly I tell you today suckas, you will be with me in paradise.

    Instead of sticking to the one verse find another verse where Jesus talks about Paradise.....there is none! His followers only mentioned paradise when speaking of heaven, never earth!

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    elamona..how can you be sure Jesus was in the tomb three days. They checked after three days which doesn't mean that he was there the whole time.

    Read each account from the gospels and you'll find they are all different.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    elamona....Many Jews in the first century believed that Paradise was the abode of the righteous in Hades. Luke 16 portrays Paradise as in Hades. Others believed it was located on the easternmost edge of the world. Not all regarded Paradise as the same as heaven and Luke seems to have a clear conception of it in Hades (compare Luke 16 and Luke 23:43 with Acts 2:27).

    Leolaia

  • artful
    artful

    Shotgun makes a good point that Christ's followers refered to Paradise as being in heaven. In fact Jesus himself does make another reference to Paradise in Revelation where he clearly indicates its location to be in heaven (where they will eat from the tree of life). I did some research on this last year and have posted it below.... ___________ Paradise references in the New Testament (there is no use of the word in the Old Testament) Luke 23 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise." COMMENT- Of the 3 occurences of the word paradise, this is the only one that is claimed by the WTS to refer to an earthly paradise, however, to determine Jesus' teaching of where paradise was located, see his words to John in Revelation below. 2 Corinthians 12 1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. COMMENT- Paul's reference to the location of paradise is in the heavens. Revelation 2 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. COMMENT- Jesus words (written by John) set the location of paradise in the heavens (see Insight on Scriptures). Cheers artful

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The picture is certainly more complex than you suppose. "Paradise," as translated in the LXX, primarily referred to the Garden of Eden, a place of fellowship with God and eternal life, from which man was banished. A question not addressed in the OT is what happened to it. This led to much speculation in Jewish and Christian thought about where it is and how it will be revealed in the future. The NT draws on this tradition. In 1 Enoch 17-33, Enoch is given a tour of Sheol where he sees both "the paradise of God" and "the accursed valley" of Gehenna in Sheol. The important thing to understand is that Sheol is not thought of as a place under the earth. It is rather a hidden nether region at the edge of the world, hidden by mountains and seas. In ch. 17-18, Enoch traverses mountains, a river of fire, and a great sea to reach a place "neither in heaven above nor in earth below" where the fallen angels were chained in prison (ch. 21). Then in ch. 22, after crossing a mountain, he found a region where the sinners and righteous were seperated awaiting judgment day. To the northwest over seven mountains lay the tree of life and New Jersalem (ch. 24-26). And next to it lay "the accursed valley" of Gehenna (ch. 27). All of this lies in the hidden realm of Sheol. In 1 Enoch 60:8, Paradise is mentioned as "where the elect and the righteous ones dwell" and where Enoch, who was "taken by God," still resides. This notion of Paradise, consistent with Near Eastern cosmology (where, in the Gilgamesh Epic, the immortal Utnapishtim resides at the edge of the world) and the description of Eden in Genesis as a place in the distant East, is certainly the older conception. It is also attested by Josephus, 2 Baruch 4:1-7, and in rabinnical literature.

    A later variation of this belief is that the Garden of Eden, or Paradise, hidden at the edge of the world, is a gateway to heaven. This is the view of the Testament of Abraham 11. Here Michael the Archangel takes Abraham "toward the east, to the first gate of heaven" (11:1). Actually here, in the netherworld, there were TWO gates. In front of them stands "the first-formed Adam" who observes the souls of the dead being seperated and passing into either gate:

    When he sees many souls entering through the straight gate, then he arises and sits on his throne rejoicing and exulting cheerfully, because this straight gate is the gate of the righteous, which leads to life, and those who enter through it come into Paradise. And on account of this the first-formed Adam rejoices, since he sees the souls being saved. And when he sees many souls entering through the broad gate, then he pulls the hair of his head and casts himself on the ground crying and wailing bitterly; for the broad gate is the gate of the sinners, which leads to destruction and eternal punishment. (Testament of Abraham 11:10-11)

    Like 1 Enoch, the souls of the wicked and righteous are separated in Sheol in "the East" but Paradise is entered through a "gate of heaven," linking Paradise with heaven. 4 Ezra 4:7-9 also mentions "the entrances of Paradise" and equates Paradise with "heaven". In both cases, Paradise/heaven is directly accessible in Hades/Sheol via an "entrance" or "gate".

    A still later development is locating Paradise in "third heaven". According to the Life of Adam and Eve 48, Adam dies and his soul washes up at the Acheron where Michael the Archangel takes him "back to Paradise, which is in third heaven" (v. 40), where "the flowers of Paradise, with their sweet fragrance" were still to be found (v. 2). Similarly, 2 Enoch 8:1-3 locates the "Paradise of Eden" in "third heaven":

    And those men took me from there, and they brought me up to the third heaven and set me down there. Then I looked downward and I saw Paradise. And that place is inconceivably pleasant. And I saw the trees in full flower. And their fruits were ripe and pleasant-smelling, with every food in yield and giving off profusely a pleasant fragrance. And in the midst of them was the tree of life, at that place where the Lord takes a rest when he goes into paradise. (2 Enoch 8:1-3)

    Paul also mentions Paradise in "third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. Paradise is still the dwelling-place of the righteous souls as the Life of Adam and Eve, Testament of Abraham, 2 Enoch and other sources claim. But there is some tension between the Jewish belief of the dead sleeping in Sheol/Hades awaiting Judgment Day and the belief of them already in heaven in Paradise. One cannot hammer out a single doctrine out of these conflicting beliefs. Jesus in Luke 23:42 certainly understands that Paradise is a place of bliss that exists NOW and a place where the righteous enter at death; he is promising the repentant sinner that he will be with him there on the very day of his death. This is in complete conformity with the concept in 1 Enoch and the Testament of Abraham that the righteous go immediately into Paradise at death. It also fits with the concept in Luke 16 where such separation also occurs at death and the righteous share fellowship with Abraham in a state of bliss.

    The idea in Revelation 22 of Paradise (New Jerusalem with gardens and the Tree of Life) being descended from heaven at the creation of a new heavens and earth is related to these developments. Here Paradise has been hidden in heaven and has always existed since creation, but now it is finally REVEALED to mankind as creation is restored. This concept is very close to 2 Baruch 4 where the Paradise that God created for Adam was taken away and preserved in heaven where it is prepared into New Jerusalem which will be revealed at the coming of the Messiah. And in a prophecy on the coming of the Messiah in the Testament of Levi 18:10-11, the Messiah is said to "open the gates of paradise; he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant to the saints to eat of the Tree of Life. The spirit of holiness shall be upon them, and Beliar shall be bound by him." In Sibylline Oracle Fr. 3:46-49, we also read: "Those who honor the true eternal God inherit life, dwelling in the luxuriant garden of Paradise for the time of eternity, feasting on the sweet bread from starry heaven." One of the disciples of John the Presbyter (who is the likely author of Revelation), Papias, also shared a similar view and believed in a literal descent of Paradise from heaven onto the earth and who described the material blessings of this "Paradise on Earth" in language almost verbatim from 2 Baruch. We can thus see how the different concepts of Paradise in the NT and early Christian writings fit into the contemporary Jewish speculation of the day.

    Leolaia

  • TheOldHippie
    TheOldHippie

    "When talking to someone do yoy say: "I tell you today"? It'd mean you say also: "I tell you yesterday" or "I tell you tomorrow" When you turn to someone and speak to him it's o b v i o u s that's today. There is no sense to add the word "today". It'd be illogical. "

    In your language, krzysiek, and in our days - yes, of course; but then we are dealing with other languages, other roots and stems, and other periods of time, and it has been stated that this was a common way of speaking in that particular language in those days. Idioms, word pictures - often seem illogical or strange by those belonging to other language families.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    In your language, krzysiek, and in our days - yes, of course; but then we are dealing with other languages, other roots and stems, and other periods of time, and it has been stated that this was a common way of speaking in that particular language in those days. Idioms, word pictures - often seem illogical or strange by those belonging to other language families.

    There is no evidence of "truly I tell you today" as a special idiom. Luke 23:43 is the only instance of amen soi/humin lego semeron in the Bible and none of the literature I've seen on this verse mentions any other use of the expression in ancient literature aside from discussions of Luke. On the contrary, we have 73 other occurrences of "truly I tell you" in the gospels (!!) -- Matthew 5:18, 26, 6:2, 5, 16, 8:10, 10:15, 23, 42, 13:17, 16:28, 17:20, 18:3, 13, 18, 19:23, 28; 21:21, 32; 21:21, 32; 23:36, 24:2, 24:24, 47, 25:12, 40, 45; 26:13, 21, 34; Mark 3:28, 8:12; 9:1, 41; 10:15, 29; 11:23; 12:43; 13:30; 14:9, 18, 25, 30; Luke 4:24; 9:27, 12:37, 44; 18:17, 29; 21:3, 32; John 1:51; 3:3, 5, 11; 5:19, 24, 25; 6:26, 32, 47, 53; 8:34, 45, 51, 58; 10:1, 7; 12:24; 13:16, 20, 21, 28; 14:12; 16:20, 23; 21:18. In none of them does semeron occur. For good reason do Bible scholars and translators regard semeron "today" in Luke 23:43 as part of the saying and not the introductory formula. The burden of proof is on those who claim that "today" formed part of the formula to come up with supporting evidence (e.g. other attestations) for it.

    This whole misinterpretation, by the way, would have been prevented had Luke used hoti "that" in this verse, which demarcates clearly where the introductory formula ends and the saying begins. Usually Luke uses this word, but sometimes (as in Luke 9:27; 18:17; 23:43) he does not. The Society pretty much lucked out in this case.

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