Early Christian apocalypses

by Leolaia 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Leolaia

  Peacefulpete: The reference to the Temple was my only reservation about the late dating, and as you point out, it is not a decisive issue. As you know, we still disagree about the Marcionite authorship of the Pauline epistles.

  Blueblades: I was not ruling out the coercive function of apocalyptic writing as well. John, in writing Revelation, for instance wanted to get the Christians in Phyrgia to stop participating in idolatry (by accepting cheap meat that was sacrificed to idols). The comment in the Didache that "all the time you have believed will be of no use to you if you are not found perfect in the last time" is also supremely coercive (Didache 16:2). We do not have a single revelation of Jesus, and we can argue whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but I would rather appreciate the rich tapestry of different traditions that unfolded in early Christianity and take them on their own terms than accept a hammered out, homogenous harmony of the Synoptic-Pauline-Johannine Jesus or the Synoptic-Pauline-Johannine eschatology that did not really correspond to the individual views expressed in the Bible.
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  peacefulpete

  Leolaia..My post was lumpy all over so i don't blame you for misunderstanding it. But i'm not really advocating marcionite authorship, it is just on erecently proposed solutions to a number of issues. i presently favor an early Gnostic (Narkissos pefers to call it proto Xtian Gnostic) origin (maybe pauline) for threads within 1 Thess. the final construction and recontexting (is that a word?) however is proto-orthodox. Even the verses immediately before those in discussion. In another thread I used verse 2 to make the point that at the time this passage was written there were counterfeit letters of paul circulating. I personally feel this was simply a preemptive attempt to supress suspiction about the present letter. ( Like a used car salesman telling you how you have to to watch out for lying used car salesmen.) The theme of a delayed end is counter to all authentic pauline and even later proto gospel material and so is considered late interpoating by many textuaral critics.
  Ultimately i agree with your chronological sequence. The question of the early Apocalyptic works that were annexed into both 1 Thess and Rev is another thing , i would suspect both to be very early.(perhaps preXtian in the case of Rev). thanks again for the hard work and insight.
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  Siddhashunyata

  The general consensus on the board is that these writings were a natural outcome of the socio/cultural/technological atmosphere of the times ( 1st, 2nd, century). I don't want to sidetrack the thread but it may help to ask the question : what types of writings are going on today that are the equivalent of the apocalyptic writings in that they provide an answer ( and perhaps hope) to the " things" of this present time period? ( Perhaps another thread could go into this if the idea is to distracting .)
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  Leolaia

  Peacefulpete....I think I was attending more to the Dutch radical view which you've mentioned previously than your current thinking. I agree with much of what you just mentioned. The theme of a delayed return is much more in line with such late post-Pauline writings as 2 Timothy 2:18 (disputing the notion that the resurrection has already occurred), the post-Johannine appendix in John 21:23 (disputing the rumor about John not dying until Jesus' return), and the reference to the "long wait for the Day of God to come" in 2 Peter 3:12. I also agree about the mention of Pauline pseudepigrapha in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is probably an attempt to deflect suspicion about the work itself -- confirmed in the exaggerated attempt to assert Pauline authorship in 3:17, which is reminiscent of the continued attempts by Pseudo-Peter to assert his Petrine identity in 2 Peter: "Yes, I am SIMEON PETER, not just Peter (1:1, compare with 1 Peter 1:1), and I was indeed the Peter that was martyred (1:14), and yes my martyrdom was prophesied by Jesus (1:14, compare with John 21:18-19, which wasn't written until the second century), and yes I was the very one who witnessed the transfiguration (1:17-18, compare with Matthew 17:5), and I acknowledge I already wrote that other letter you all know (3:1), etc.," despite that fact that the Peter of 1 Peter makes no such strenuous attempt to assert his identity, and despite occasional slip-ups (like the reference to "the apostles" as those in the past in 3:2 or to the time passed "since the Fathers died" in 3:4 or reference to Paul's letters as "scripture" in 3:16, etc.). Anyway, I know you don't disagree on this, so I digress....

  The issue of a pre-Christian or at least pre-John precursor of Revelation is itself a fascinating subject, considering the composite nature of the book and the relevance of the language to the events of Caligula's and Nero's reigns. I am most interested in the connections between Revelation and John the Presbyter's other chiliast expectations and 2 Baruch -- which anticipates certain key concepts of Revelation. Book 4 of the Jewish Sibylline Oracles also shares many cognate concepts with the hardboiled apocalypse in Revelation 9-18 (e.g. Nero redivivus, the Parthian army, the fall of Babylon).
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  Leolaia

  what types of writings are going on today that are the equivalent of the apocalyptic writings in that they provide an answer ( and perhaps hope) to the "things" of this present time period?

  Well, this is not an exact parallel, but what about the LEFT BEHIND book series? Here is an attempt to visualize apocalyptic events within a contemporary context that draws the reader in to share this vision of what the future has in store. It does not speak the symbolic language of genuine apocalypses and presents itself as fiction instead of a real vision of the future, but as a visualization of hoped-for realities, it seems to fulfill a similar function as popular apocalypses of the past.
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  smiddy

  bump
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  Ruby456

  thank you smiddy. My neck has been threatening to go into a spasm though and I need to do some exercise so I'll save this for later
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  EdenOne

  I'm always fascinated by Leolaia's research.

  Eden
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  Ruby456

  I so agree with this from Leolaia

  There is an important social function to apocalypses -- they provide hope, comfort, and a sense of final justice in times of social crisis. Most of the great apocalypses were written during such times.
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  Witness My Fury

  Damn I miss this woman.....