Satan, Serpents, Seraphs, Dragons... and Wisdom

by AGuest 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

pomegranate

Snakes die on stakes (poles), cause they have no limbs;
Rom 16:20, "And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly."
Gen 3:14, "...so the LORD God said to the serpent..."
Gen 3:15, "... I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head...
Num 21:8
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole...;
Judg 4:21
She drove the peg through his temple...
Judg 4:22, "...there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple-dead".
Zech 10:4, "From Judah will come the cornerstone, from him the tent peg, from him the battle bow, from him every ruler."
Father = Jael
Christ = tent peg
Satan = Sisera
John 3:14-15
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Christ (the Lamb) gets lifted up on the cross to his death.
Satan (the Snake) gets lifted up on the pole to his death.
As surely as Christ’s death means everlasting life, so does the death of Satan equally mean our everlasting life. The chief resistor must be put down forever. The Israelites were resisting Moses, God's appointed. When they resist God, they act like Satan the snake. God sends out who they are acting like (vipers) to punish them to the death. God then puts the reminder in their face, the snake on the pole, as the saving factor and as a stern message as to what happens to snakes that resist. They will be "lifted up." Look long and hard and do not look away...
Christ died on a cross, cause he had limbs like a tree, just like you and me. Satan will "die on a pole" as serpents have no limbs. Those who say Christ is the snake and died on a pole are sadly mistaken, and equating copper snake and the symbolic instrument of death of Satan to Christ. Shall a snake ever symbolize the Christ? May that never happen, He is the Lamb of God, not the copper serpent in the desert.
PS. There's only one place on a snake to put the nail when you lift him up. Through the head.
pomegranate

The context in the paragraph has TWO distinct things. They are Two seperate and distinct DO NOTS each independent from the other.
Col 2:16-19
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
The first "do not" has to do with the Law. They are released from it and no fellow Jew can judge them regarding NOT doing the rituals of Law anymore. Christ is that reality. Simple.
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
The above is the other do not, that is NOT related to the first do not. Simple easy to understand grammar.
Were it as you suggest, then Paul/Timothy would have been speaking about ones who were SHOWN things, and thus SAW things, by means of Christ...
The next time Christ shows something, it will be on a worldwide scale. Not just to some guy sitting behind his CRT screen professing visions of God. The next showing will be to clean house.
The Apostle John's vision is plenty enough for me in that regard. You?
AGuest

Dearest 'Pom... may you have peace!
Let's look at the copper serpent issue, first (which I notice you didn't quote, but brought in a totally irrelevant thought with regard to Jael, et al., which I do not disagree with).
Let's look at Numbers 21:5-9:
"And the people kept speaking AGAINST God and Moses:
'Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in
the wilderness? For there is no bread and no water
and our soul has come to abhor the contemptible
bread (they didn't like manna anymore...). "So...
JAH sent POISONOUS serpent among the people and
they kept biting the people so that many people
of Israel died.
"Finally the people came to Moses and said: 'We
have sinned against JAH and against you. Inter-
cede with JAH that He may REMOVE the serpents from
upon us.' And Moses went interceding in behalf of
the people. Then... JAH said to Moses, 'Make for
yourself a fiery snake (saraph; seraph) and place
it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that
when ANYONE has been bitten (and thus going to die),
he then HAS to look at it and so must keep alive.
Moses at once made a serpent OF COPPER and placed
it upon the signal pole; and it DID occur that IF
a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the
COPPER serpent, he THEN... kept alive."
Okay, so the Israelites had to gaze at this copper serpent... on a pole... in order not to die.
Now, let's look at what my Lord said at John 3:14, 15:
"Just as Moses LIFTED UP THE SNAKE in the desert,
so THE SON OF MAN MUST BE LIFTED UP, that everyone
WHO BELIEVES IN HIM may have eternal LIFE."
See the similarity there, 'Pom? Problem is, you have my Lord lifted up on a cross... when in fact he was not. He was lifted up on a POLE (the WTBTS says a 'stake', but they, too, are in error...), with a board or limb across the topmost end... which RESEMBLED a "T"... but to the Greeks speaking Jews was a 'pole'.
You have entirely used speculation and conjecture in your 'theory' on this. But let's not stop there. At what point anywhere does any Bible writer refer to Satan as having ANY appearance of 'copper'? None. However, my Lord is described as having copper feet by TWO prophets, Daniel and John.
Daniel 10:6
Revelation 1:15
At what point does any writer say that it is SATAN that must be gazed upon to gain life? However, they DO say, with reference to my Lord, at Hebrews 12:1, 2:
"So, then, because we have do great a cloud of
witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off
every weight and the sin that easily entangles
us, and let us run with endurance the race that
is set before us... AS WE LOOK INTENTLY at the
Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, JAHESHUA."
What is a 'chief agent', 'Pom, and what is my Lord 'Chief Agent' OF? An 'agent' is one who acts on behalf of another and 'brokers' something for that one. My Lord... is the 'Chief Agent'... of LIFE... and is the one the BROKERS 'life' for us! Thus, just as the Israelites were to look at that coppper serpent in order to live... WE... must look INTENTLY at the COPPER-FOOTED Chief Agent of Life... who was hung ON A POLE... for life! We must continue to gaze at my Lord... and NOT take our gaze off him.
But we can't DO that... if indeed we can't SEE him... can we? But we CAN see him. We can do it, however, NOT with sight... but with SPIRIT. For he IS a spirit and it is only WITH the spirit that he can be seen.
With regard to your position on Colossians 2:16-19, let me quote the orignal Greek for you, if I may. I started to do this for you last night, but dealt only with the fact that you misunderstood the statement. Here is what the original GREEK states:
"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath NOT seen, vainly puffed up by his FLESHLY mind..."
Again, I say to you that if seeing things of THAT world... and relating such things... is wrong, then all of the prophets who did so were wrong... as was John.
With regard to your statement that:
"The next time Christ shows something, it will be on a worldwide scale..."
I must say that you are incorrect. If you recall, my Lord said, before ascending to my Father, "Look! I am WITH you all the days..." He MEANT that, 'Pom. Unfortunately, it takes FAITH to see and hear him... and 'faith, is not the possession of all men.' However, you are correct in that when he returns, indeed... EVERY EYE... will see him. You BETCHA. And, as I was permitted to relate to you... folks are going to be MIGHT surprised. Better start pickin' out which mountain you're gonna want to 'fall over you', then.
With regard to your statement that his revelation would not be "just to some guy sitting behind his CRT screen professing visions of God...", I say to you:
1. My visions of God are quite rare... it is usually my Lord and other spirit beings, events;
2. I am a 'gal'; and
3. My screen is a Super VGA. If YOU are still staring at a CRT, perhaps you would want to step out of the 'dark ages'... and into the 'light' of 24-bit.
I bid you peace... honestly and truthfully... and I remain,
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
AGuest

Dearest 'Pom... may you have peace!
Let's look at the copper serpent issue, first (which I notice you didn't quote, but brought in a totally irrelevant thought with regard to Jael, et al., which I do not disagree with).
Let's look at Numbers 21:5-9:
"And the people kept speaking AGAINST God and Moses:
'Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in
the wilderness? For there is no bread and no water
and our soul has come to abhor the contemptible
bread (they didn't like manna anymore...). "So...
JAH sent POISONOUS serpent among the people and
they kept biting the people so that many people
of Israel died.
"Finally the people came to Moses and said: 'We
have sinned against JAH and against you. Inter-
cede with JAH that He may REMOVE the serpents from
upon us.' And Moses went interceding in behalf of
the people. Then... JAH said to Moses, 'Make for
yourself a fiery snake (saraph; seraph) and place
it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that
when ANYONE has been bitten (and thus going to die),
he then HAS to look at it and so must keep alive.
Moses at once made a serpent OF COPPER and placed
it upon the signal pole; and it DID occur that IF
a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the
COPPER serpent, he THEN... kept alive."
Okay, so the Israelites had to gaze at this copper serpent... on a pole... in order not to die.
Now, let's look at what my Lord said at John 3:14, 15:
"Just as Moses LIFTED UP THE SNAKE in the desert,
so THE SON OF MAN MUST BE LIFTED UP, that everyone
WHO BELIEVES IN HIM may have eternal LIFE."
See the similarity there, 'Pom? Problem is, you have my Lord lifted up on a cross... when in fact he was not. He was lifted up on a POLE (the WTBTS says a 'stake', but they, too, are in error...), with a board or limb across the topmost end... which RESEMBLED a "T"... but to the Greeks speaking Jews was a 'pole'.
You have entirely used speculation and conjecture in your 'theory' on this. But let's not stop there. At what point anywhere does any Bible writer refer to Satan as having ANY appearance of 'copper'? None. However, my Lord is described as having copper feet by TWO prophets, Daniel and John.
Daniel 10:6
Revelation 1:15
At what point does any writer say that it is SATAN that must be gazed upon to gain life? However, they DO say, with reference to my Lord, at Hebrews 12:1, 2:
"So, then, because we have do great a cloud of
witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off
every weight and the sin that easily entangles
us, and let us run with endurance the race that
is set before us... AS WE LOOK INTENTLY at the
Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, JAHESHUA."
What is a 'chief agent', 'Pom, and what is my Lord 'Chief Agent' OF? An 'agent' is one who acts on behalf of another and 'brokers' something for that one. My Lord... is the 'Chief Agent'... of LIFE... and is the one the BROKERS 'life' for us! Thus, just as the Israelites were to look at that coppper serpent in order to live... WE... must look INTENTLY at the COPPER-FOOTED Chief Agent of Life... who was hung ON A POLE... for life! We must continue to gaze at my Lord... and NOT take our gaze off him.
But we can't DO that... if indeed we can't SEE him... can we? But we CAN see him. We can do it, however, NOT with sight... but with SPIRIT. For he IS a spirit and it is only WITH the spirit that he can be seen.
With regard to your position on Colossians 2:16-19, let me quote the orignal Greek for you, if I may. I started to do this for you last night, but dealt only with the fact that you misunderstood the statement. Here is what the original GREEK states:
"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath NOT seen, vainly puffed up by his FLESHLY mind..."
Again, I say to you that if seeing things of THAT world... and relating such things... is wrong, then all of the prophets who did so were wrong... as was John.
With regard to your statement that:
"The next time Christ shows something, it will be on a worldwide scale..."
I must say that you are incorrect. If you recall, my Lord said, before ascending to my Father, "Look! I am WITH you all the days..." He MEANT that, 'Pom. Unfortunately, it takes FAITH to see and hear him... and 'faith, is not the possession of all men.' However, you are correct in that when he returns, indeed... EVERY EYE... will see him. You BETCHA. And, as I was permitted to relate to you... folks are going to be MIGHT surprised. Better start pickin' out which mountain you're gonna want to 'fall over you', then.
With regard to your statement that his revelation would not be "just to some guy sitting behind his CRT screen professing visions of God...", I say to you:
1. My visions of God are quite rare... it is usually my Lord and other spirit beings, events;
2. I am a 'gal'; and
3. My screen is a Super VGA. If YOU are still staring at a CRT, perhaps you would want to step out of the 'dark ages'... and into the 'light' of 24-bit.
I bid you peace... honestly and truthfully... and I remain,
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
pomegranate

Two prophecies of Christ on the cross are vividly portrayed by Israel and Moses...
Gen 48:12-14
12 Then Joseph removed them from Israel's knees and bowed down with his face to the ground. 13 And Joseph took both of them, Ephraim on his right toward Israel's left hand and Manasseh on his left toward Israel's right hand, and brought them close to him. 14 But Israel reached out his right hand and put it on Ephraim's head, though he was the younger, and crossing his arms, he put his left hand on Manasseh's head, even though Manasseh was the firstborn.
The "Right" went to #2 by way of a cross.
#2 (as Christ is of God) gets the blessing of the firstborn [you do realize Christ is both of these depictions, #2 AND firstborn]] by way of the crossed arms of Israel.
Ex 17:10-13
10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses' hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up--one on one side, one on the other--so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.
Moses arms were held up left and right by Aaron and Hur in the position of the outstretched arms of the Christ. The text plainly states his arms were held up on EACH SIDE, not over the head. Christ remained on the cross till sunset just as Moses remained true to the prophecy. Moses sitting on a rock is also important as that was in symbol of Christ relying fully on His Father (the Rock) for ALL SUPPORT as Christ was to willingly die for ALL THINGS.
Regarding your premise that the Christ and Satan both die on the same instrument of death:
2 Cor 6:14-16
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?
NOTHING. Not even the instrument of death.
At what point anywhere does any Bible writer refer to Satan as having ANY appearance of 'copper'? None. However, my Lord is described as having copper feet by TWO prophets, Daniel and John.
Snake = Satan, always has, always will.
At what point anywhere is Christ refered to as a snake on a pole? Copper is earthen. Both Satan and Christ became earthen as copper is. How so? Christ's feet touched the ground on His quest to salvage his earthen vessels. The serpents belly, which stems from it's head all the way to it's tail AS BEEN CONDEMNED to the earthen ground to eat the dust of the earth, as he is the perpetrator of earthen corruption. Copper. Satan from head to body. Christ, only his feet. Satan corrupted what's earthen. Christ's salvages what's been corrupted. Copper is earthen.
AGuest

Sorry, 'Pom... but again, you are in error. Let's take a look:
---------------
Two prophecies of Christ on the cross are vividly portrayed by Israel and Moses...
Gen 48:12-14
12 Then Joseph removed them from Israel's knees and bowed down with his face to the ground. 13 And Joseph took both of them, Ephraim on his right toward Israel's left hand and Manasseh on his left toward Israel's right hand, and brought them close to him. 14 But Israel reached out his right hand and put it on Ephraim's head, though he was the younger, and crossing his arms, he put his left hand on Manasseh's head, even though Manasseh was the firstborn.
The "Right" went to #2 by way of a cross.
#2 (as Christ is of God) gets the blessing of the firstborn [you do realize Christ is both of these depictions, #2 AND firstborn]] by way of the crossed arms of Israel.
---------------
'Pom, this is in fulfillment and 'type' of the younger receiving the blessing over the older, in different ways:
1. PHYSICALLY, it is represented by Ishamel (the older) and Isaac (the younger), and the one being born in the manner of a PROMISE (Isaac), receiving the inheritance over the one born in the manner of the FLESH (Ishmael).
2. SPIRITUALLY, it is represented by Adam (God's first 'son', by the Earth/Hagar, and therefore, the older), and my Lord, JAHESHUA, (God's second 'son', by Jerusalem Above/Sarah, and therefore the younger), and the one being born in the manner of a PROMISE (my Lord), receiving the inheritance over the one born in the manner of the FLESH (Adam).
---------------
Ex 17:10-13
10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses' hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up--one on one side, one on the other--so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.
Moses arms were held up left and right by Aaron and Hur in the position of the outstretched arms of the Christ. The text plainly states his arms were held up on EACH SIDE, not over the head. Christ remained on the cross till sunset just as Moses remained true to the prophecy. Moses sitting on a rock is also important as that was in symbol of Christ relying fully on His Father (the Rock) for ALL SUPPORT as Christ was to willingly die for ALL THINGS.
------------------
Yep, and just as Moses lifted up his hand... and the copper serpent... so, too, it is my Lord... and NOT SATAN... that was 'lifted up'... so that we might have life.
-------------------
Regarding your premise that the Christ and Satan both die on the same instrument of death:
2 Cor 6:14-16
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?
NOTHING. Not even the instrument of death.
--------------------
Uh, I NEVER said Satan died on a pole. YOU said that, with your analogy of a serpent only being hung on a pole by it being stuck through his head. What you failed to 'see'... is that while indeed, a tent peg was driven through Sisera's head, etc., Satan was to be CRUSHED in the head.
----------------
quote:
At what point anywhere does any Bible writer refer to Satan as having ANY appearance of 'copper'? None. However, my Lord is described as having copper feet by TWO prophets, Daniel and John.
Snake = Satan, always has, always will.
--------------------
Then what, dear one, is a SERAPH... and why are there FOUR of them around the throne of my Father? 'Satan' means 'slanderer'... and not 'snake'. 'Snake'... is 'serpent'... and 'fiery serpent'... is 'saraph'. And 'seraphs'... are 'cherubs'.
The SERPENT that Moses lifted up... was copper. The ONLY other reference in ALL of the Bible to a being of copper... is with reference to my Lord. IS his skin like 'copper'. Yes, indeedy, it is. For I have seen it, just as did Daniel and John. And it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the color of flesh as known in THIS system of things. You are referring to flesh, 'with its blood'... which cannot ENTER into the kingdom of the heavens, dearest 'Pom.
---------------
At what point anywhere is Christ refered to as a snake on a pole? Copper is earthen.
---------------
Really. You think so? Then why are the streets of New Jerusalem... GOLD? Why was Satan 'covered' with 'every precious stone' and his 'sockets' of gold? Why are the 'foundations' of the city's walls 'adorned with every precious stone'? You're thinking WAY too small, 'Pom. You have your mind 'upon the things on the earth'. You must think BIGGER.
--------------
Both Satan and Christ became earthen as copper is. How so? Christ's feet touched the ground on His quest to salvage his earthen vessels. The serpents belly, which stems from it's head all the way to it's tail AS BEEN CONDEMNED to the earthen ground to eat the dust of the earth, as he is the perpetrator of earthen corruption. Copper. Satan from head to body. Christ, only his feet. Satan corrupted what's earthen. Christ's salvages what's been corrupted. Copper is earthen.
--------------
Uh, 'Pom... besides the fact that SATAN wasn't condemned to the earth at the point to which you refer, when both Daniel and John SAW my Lord... he was a SPIRIT... and not 'earthen'. Daniel saw him BEFORE he had 'put on' the 'soiled garment'... earthly and therefore SINFUL flesh (Romans 8:3)... and John saw him AFTER he had put it 'off'. He was 'copper' in appearance BOTH times.
Copper is no MORE 'earthen' than is gold, chrysolite, onyx, iron, clay (which is REALLY the most 'earthen'), silver, topaz, etc., etc. And ALL of these represent what existed LONG before the earth came into existence. As I was permitted to state to you before, that which is NOW, came OUT of that which existed before it.
My Lord is the COPPER one, in that he is/was the PLAIN looking one, in contrast to Satan's BEAUTY. The 'cover' or 'propitiatory' of the Ark of the Covenant was pure gold; however, the CHERUBS on TOP of the cover... those created to PROTECT the cover... were MUCH more elaborate... being made of 'hammered' gold, which denoted master artistry. And the faces of the two cherubs... were TOWARD the 'cover'.
When I was taken BEFORE that Ark, in the Most Holy of my Father (I was TAKEN there by my Lord, for I could NOT have 'entered' except THROUGH him...), this is what I saw:
The Ark was a smallish rectangular 'box'... and it was magnificent. The one that Moses had made was NOTHING compared to it. It was indeed gold, only it was not 'covered' in gold, but SOLID gold. The cover was solid gold, too, but inlaid in its lid was a COPPER serpent... with legs AND wings. A 'dragon', by this world's standard, but not by that one's.
On TOP of the cover... on each END... were two MAGNIFICENT... jewel ENCRUSTED... 'dragons'. MUCH more beautiful than the one of the cover. MUCH more. And at the behest of 'others' (I won't go into that now...), these to began a FEARSOME battle. And the one on the RIGHT, knocked the one on the LEFT... OFF the 'cover'. And the one that was knocked off... was hurled OUT of that place, the Most Holy, out past the place just outside of that, the Holy, outside of THAT place, the Courtyard of the Priests, outside of THAT place, the Courtyard of Israel... outside of THAT place, the Couryard of Women, outside of THAT place, the Courtyard of the Gentiles, until it was COMPLETELY outside of the 'temple' area altogether.
It was hurled out of THOSE 'heavens'... to the 'heaven'... or spirit realm just outside of the PHYSICAL realm. And it is there that that one 'sat', and as 'seeds' on the earth making their way BACK to the Ark (from where they originated), it attempted to DEVOUR them. Some, it did, right out. Others turned back and it chased them down until it caught them... and devoured them.
A few of the 'seeds', however, either hit it head on, OPPOSED it, and IT backed down and so they made it past it, or they managed to somehow get AROUND it.
Now, I know that you are not interested in hearing of what I have seen and heard. But you are not the only 'player' in this game, and I have an OBLIGATION to share with others what has been given me. I RECEIVED it 'free', by means of the 'free gift' of holy spirit that I also received... and I GIVE it free, along with such spirit.
And if you choose to see NOT the 'good' in that, but 'wish' to see only the 'bad'... that IS what you will see. And that IS... entirely YOUR perogative. As for me, I STILL bid you peace and remain,
YOUR servant, a servant to the Household of God, Israel, and a slave of Christ,
SJ

Satan, Serpents, Seraphs, Dragons... and Wisdom

pomegranate

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AGuest

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AGuest

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