"Get Out of Her, My People" and Social Responsibility

by GinnyTosken 12 Replies latest jw friends

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  GinnyTosken

  "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins." (Rev. 18:4)

  As Jehovah's Witnesses, how many times was that drummed into our heads? Even as an XJW, the phrase springs into my mind when I consider involvement in a questionable situation or organization. Is this a valid guideline? Are we as individuals responsible for the "sins" of the groups with which we are involved? Here are some examples to ponder:

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  Some time ago I was very active on this discussion board. I knew most of the regular posters, their personalities, and their squabbles. Circumstances in my life changed, and I haven't kept up with the new faces and board happenings. I have looked in often enough to gather that several people think that the moderators are too harsh and that Simon has removed posting privileges unfairly. I didn't think much of it until I saw Expatbrit on JWO. I like him a lot, consider him a clear and careful thinker, and admire his insights. If he was troubled by the situation, perhaps this went beyond pettiness. I told myself I should read through the referenced threads and investigate. But I don't have much free time these days, and the thought of slogging backwards through so many threads was not appealing. Am I making a statement if I chose to post on one board or the other? By posting, am I sharing in "sins," even if the exact nature of these sins is unknown to me?

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  Part of the Eightfold Path of Buddhism is "Right Livelihood." Right livelihood means that one should earn one's living in a righteous way and that wealth should be gained legally and peacefully. The Buddha mentions four specific activities that harm other beings and that one should avoid for this reason: 1. dealing in weapons, 2. dealing in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), 3. working in meat production and butchery, and 4. selling intoxicants and poisons, such as alcohol and drugs. Furthermore any other occupation that would violate the principles of right speech and right action should be avoided.

  A couple of years ago, I worked at a Wal-mart distribution center. I loved the schedule (three 12-hour days each week), and I enjoyed being physically active. My conscience pained me because I did not wish to support an organization that kills small, independent businesses and shops wherever it opens. I also saw Wal-mart management fire one of my coworkers unfairly. After he left, I felt guilty about continuing to work there. I would have liked to have walked out myself on principle, but I had myself and my son to support, and I couldn't leave, could I? Did I share in Wal-mart's sins while I worked there?

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  I happen to live in the United States. I did not vote for our current president and disagree with many of his actions and policies. Still, I continue to live in the United States and support the government with my taxes. Am I sharing in the sins of the United States?

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  Ginny
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  gumby

  Am I making a statement if I chose to post on one board or the other? By posting, am I sharing in "sins," even if the exact nature of these sins is unknown to me?

  I'll take a shot at this part.

  Hell no!......How was that?

  To AID in anothers detriment is SHARING in something bad. If another board served the purpose of ONLY bad things that harmed others.....then I would say to join with them would not be good. I've not seen a situation like this.

  If an exact nature is UNKNOWN to you......why would you think you would be accountable to anyone if you shared in it?

  Gumby
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  SixofNine

  Hi Ginny. Don't you worry about that expat, he's one 'a them crazy librarians.

  I've been thinking along a similar line of thought recently, Ginny, as I get more involved in the election this year. I remember Original Worldly Girl (OWG), so interestingly spiritual, as I was just fresh out of the JW religion. We agreed that so many things about the Witnesses were wrong and even petty and certainly hurtful. But when I went to tell her how JW's don't vote, "because they are to be no part of the world", she seemed especially exasperated. "That is just stupid" she exclaimed irritatedly. I was actually embarrassed, because at that time, it still felt somewhat logical to me, though when I heard her sincere exasperation about it, I also knew I didn't have any good logical reason as to why voting and politics is where JW's draw the line.

  And that's just the thing, isn't it? It's an arbitrary line drawn in the sand; JW's are part of the world in many ways, and are not in many ways. They certainly could withdraw like say, the Amish, but they don't. Why is voting the line that must not be crossed? What about rendering Ceasar his due? What about cooperating with "God's minister (the governments)"? If God considers governments to be "ministers" for Christians, and even uses governments to accomplish his will, why wouldn't christians have at least a nominal part the democratic practice, if that is what is required for a given government to function?

  Just one more area where JW's would be so much cleaner if they left things up to the individual's concience.

  And yet, what I noticed is that OWG and many other people who consider themselves christian, take the admonition to "be no part of the world" seriously, and fret over how to do that correctly. This point was driven home to me when I saw that very question posed on the cover of some glossy new-age-ish "spirituality" magazine, "how to be no part of the world". Believe me, these people had given the question far more sincere thought than any group of 144k Jehovah's Witnesses you could ever come up with.

  Now, just a few short years later I can say unreservedly, as for me and my household I love the world and the things of the world.
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  gumby

  Now, just a few short years later I can say unreservedly, as for me and my household I love the world and the things of the world

  Thats right folks............and this same worldly bastard has a go-tee(can't spell it)....AND he has a motorbike.He's a worldly bastard.

  Gumby
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  GinnyTosken

  Gumby,

  If an exact nature is UNKNOWN to you......why would you think you would be accountable to anyone if you shared in it?

  Is it my responsibility as a citizen, be that of a country or a discussion board, to investigate issues and be informed?

  Six,

  I do agree with you about arbitrary lines in all aspects of life. It's interesting to me to consider where and why we draw them.

  Ginny
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  wasasister

  Ginny:

  Good post, as always. I?ve been thinking about this very subject of late, due to some inner conflicts regarding my new-found patriotism.

  Although I do not support the polices of the current administration, I still believe I can work within the framework of The Establishment to make things better. Thus, I do not feel obliged to sell my home, quit my job, and move to another country in protest.

  How far does this attitude go? In other words, at what point do I ?get out of her?? If I am working for a mechanic who routinely cheats customers on auto repairs and I am silent about the deception, am I complicit? Probably, and my sense of honesty would compel me to leave. Do I wear clothing that was produced in a sweatshop by underpaid 12 year olds? Probably, without even knowing it. How far does my own responsibility extend? Should know the origins of all my consumables? Kind of a weird personal boundary for each of us. I don?t, for example, eat veal. I eat beef, though. Not sure I could justify either decision.

  I admit I have remained silent (well?.mostly) while the administration of this forum has done things with which I have strenuously disagreed. Should I therefore stop posting here? I have drastically cut back my participation, but due to the sheer number of members, I remain in contact. Time would not allow most of us to follow every controversy and make a truly informed decision about the right/wrongness of the outcome. I can only say that over the past year or so, I?ve seen things that made me very uncomfortable and I have at times said as much.

  Think of it this way, Ginny: When you sit down to eat a meal, can you reasonably be expected to know whether or not illegal immigrants were abused to pick the romain for your salad? Could you possibly know whether the chicken breast in your sandwich was raised under humane conditions? Were the dairy farmers who produced your cheddar cheese paid a just price?

  Sometimes, we just have to do the best we can.

  I?ll remain a resident of the USA because I love it here and I believe it is among the very best places to live. I?ll continue to work to return the government to one I can support. I?ll recycle and carpool when possible. I?ll keep posting here until the administration does something that crosses my own personal boundary. I hope you do, too. It?s really good to have you back.

  Wasa
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  heathen

  I think jesus reply to pilot was give ceasars things unto ceasar and Gods things unto God . The babylon thing has more to do with how you chose to worship God Almighty. True we do have a government that likes to play God but as far as paying taxes I think the same rule applies because ceasar was supposed to be God on earth. As far as reporting illegal things at work I think would be entirely up to you .It's very hard to find work for a company that is completely on the level anyway . I think they're all crooks .
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  Purple

  Voting is an interesting topic. Here is downunder land the Borg has the same stance of course as the rest of the Borg. What is interesting is that the law states that a person has the right to choose whether to vote or not. To not vote is not illegal. What is illegal is to not register your name on the electoral role and have it crossed off during an election day.

  So a good topic of discussion was "is crossing your name off an electoral role and not actually filling out a balad paper voting"? I always thought myself that having your name crossed off the electoral list was really paying ceasers due to cearser. Crossing your name off a list is not voting yet we were always warned not to do this. I never got fined and I dont think many did. The fine was nominal about something like $18 aus dollars. One year the papers announced that they were going to make it a point of fining people who did not vote for religious conscience reasons and such and that scriptual explanations would not be accepted.

  Of course everyone was upset and nervous but not one person got fined that I ever heard of. I always thought of this issue as that of a test the society gave us to see how loyal we would be even when no one was looking and no other brother or sister would know what you did or didnt do. I vote all the time now. You would of thought that the Borg would of wanted us to vote in politicians sympathetic to their view of life to make things easier!

  But how much responsibility do we take for the action of others whether intended or not is a big question. I reckon this would be one of those things you have to make your own mind up about. I guess if you took a stand that would be great and worthy as long as it was your stand for an issue you believed in and not one that is imposed on you. Great thread though!
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  Lady Lee

  hmmmmmm as usual Ginny - lots to dwell upon
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  Euphemism

  Just my dos centavos... I think that the whole idea of "social responsibility" is based on a guilt-centered definition of ethics. I.e. one that defines certain fixed obligations, and you are a 'sinner' or a bad person if you don't meet those obligations.

  I think that any reasonable ethics have to situational... based not on guilt, but on potential. In other words, ask the question: what can I do, in my situation, to make a positive difference?

  IMHO, that line of inquiry is more productive than a system of abstract ethical rules, which tend to end up in paradox (e.g. it's wrong to sell arms, but it's also wrong not to support your family, so which takes precedence?).