JW Writing Committee has a dilemma with Stephen's prayer

by BoogerMan 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  BoogerMan

  (Acts 7:59, 60) "And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal* and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death]." *Or, “invocation; prayer.” NWT Reference Bible)

  w59 2/1 p. 96 - Jesus had taught his followers that the Father authorized him to raise others to life. So it was proper for Stephen to petition Jesus over this matter, and his prayer indicates proper understanding on his part.

  w05 1/1 p. 31 - Does Stephen’s brief utterance set a precedent for praying to Jesus? Not at all.... Also, these circumstances were exceptional. The only other case of such an utterance being directed to Jesus is that of the apostle John,* who similarly addressed Jesus directly when he saw Him in vision.
  

  * False teaching! 🤣 This is either a blatant lie, or someone in the Writing Committee doesn't know what the Bible "really" teaches. (see Acts 9:4, 5 when Saul/Paul spoke to Jesus)
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  vienne

  Paul spoke in response to a direct address. This is not the same as a prayer to Jesus. Your point is a 'false analogy,' a common logic fault.

  In Stephen's case the Bible says: "54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”"

  He saw Jesus and God in vision. [Note that the verses describe Jesus as at God's right hand and not as God himself.] Stephen addresses his petition to a Jesus he sees. This is a conversational transaction. If you pray to Jesus, then shouldn't you follow the pattern set by these verses, and only address him when you SEE him?

  Your point is poorly thought out.
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  slimboyfat

  Absolutely what vienne said, this was a response by Stephen to seeing Jesus visibly, completely different from a prayer. Another such instance is Revelation 22 where John saw Jesus in a vision and spoke to him directly. Again not a prayer. In the NT prayers are said to God alone.
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  slimboyfat

  The comments of the Catholic theologian Hans Küng in his book Christianity: The Religious Situation of Our Time on this passage are spot on:

  “There is probably no better story in the New Testament to show us the relationship of Father, Son and Spirit than that of the speech made by the protomartyr Stephen in his own defence, which has been handed down to us by Luke in his Acts of the Apostles. During this speech Stephen has a vision: 'But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” So here we have God, Jesus the Son of Man, and the Holy Spirit. But Stephen does not see, say, a God with three faces, far less three men in the same form, nor any triangular symbol of the kind that was to be used centuries later in Western Christian art. Rather:

  • The Holy Spirit is at Stephen's side, is in Stephen himself. The Spirit, the invisible power and might issuing from God, fills him fully and thus opens his eyes: in the Spirit heaven opens to him.

  • God himself (ho theos = the God) remains hidden, is not in human form; only his 'glory' (Hebrew kabod, Greek doxa) is visible: God's splendour and power, the brilliance of light which issues fully from him.

  • Finally Jesus, visible as the Son of Man, stands (and we already know the significance of this formula) at ‘the right hand of God’: that means in throne communion with God, in the same power and slory, Palled as Son of God and taken up into God's eternal life. He is God’s representative for us and at the same time, as a human being, the human representative before God.”
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  EasyPrompt

  We might be blind to Jesus' presence in a room or deaf to his voice, but he can see us and hear us.

  
  

  After his resurrection, Jesus appeared in the locked room where the disciples were. On another occasion he materialized so they could see him and they talked with him. But he could hear them before they knew he was there.

  
  

  Jesus said he'd be with us all the days. He can hear when we talk to him, and it's not "worship" or a "prayer" to talk to somebody.

  
  

  Just because a person is blind and deaf doesn't mean they have to ignore the other people in the room that they can't see and hear. We are blind and deaf to the angels around us all the time. There is nothing in the Bible that says you can't talk to Jesus. He did die for us.

  
  

  Jesus told us to pray to Our Father, Jehovah. But he never said we couldn't talk to Jesus himself, as is shown at Acts 9:4-8

  
  

  Acts 9:4-8

  
  

  "Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He asked: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Now the men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing, indeed, the sound of a voice but seeing no one. Saul then got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus."
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  BoogerMan

  I neither said that Stephen prayed nor did I agree with the WT "explanation."

  The org says he prayed - and then they had a problem with the word "prayer."

  w59 2/1 p. 96 - ".....and his prayer indicates proper understanding on his part."

  Stephen, Saul/Paul, & John each had a brief exchange with Christ - not a prayer. After all, people should be able to address their mediator.

  Sorry for the confusion.
  
  
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  slimboyfat

  Fair enough if all you mean to show is that Watchtower has made contradictory statements on the topic. Watchtower has in the past also said that Jesus is to be “worshipped”, as in the early NWT rendering of Heb 1.6, for example.

  The New Testament itself has different perspectives and emphases as it was written by many different authors. However it’s pretty clear that the early Christians distinguishes between God and Jesus and worshipped God through Jesus, everything ultimately being to the glory of God the Father.
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  EasyPrompt

  @BoogerMan, I think it's a really cool topic, I've enjoyed everybody's comments and I appreciate that you brought it up. 🙂🫶 Thank you!
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  BoogerMan

  @ EasyPrompt: the org eventually got it straight, but still rejects the notion of Christians talking to their mediator/intercessor.

  w08 5/15 p. 31 par. 2 - Fully aware that Jesus had been given the power to resurrect the dead, Stephen spoke, but did not pray, directly to Jesus, asking Him to safeguard his spirit.
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  punkofnice

  I'm surprised they haven't crow barred in; '.....and evidently(tm) Stephen would want you to give us your money.'