Do JWs fear God or the organization? Can they distinguish between the two?

by somebodylovesme 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  somebodylovesme

  I bring this up because I was just thinking about some crap I went through with my JW in-laws awhile back -- when I was marrying their son and we were desperately trying to figure out a way to do a wedding without him getting disfellowshipped. The things I heard them say (their objections) seemed framed by what the elders would say, how it would look to the congregation, their privileges, etc. I don't remember ever hearing them say that anything would displease Jehovah. No, no, it would just displease other people.

  At the time, I liked to think that they didn't mention God because they sincerely did support our married (I still believe that and have every reason to -- I love them to death, and they treat me like a real daughter) -- but I didn't really consider that maybe displeasing the elders/congregation and displeasing God was one and the same to them. I didn't ask.

  So out of curiosity... when you were a Witness, was there a difference to you between the judgment of the Witnesses and the judgment of God?

  SLM
  who is procrastinating... homework sucks
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  stillajwexelder

  No question they fear the organization -- therea re many things that prove that this is athe case
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  NeonMadman

  Sure there was. The judgment of God was somewhere in the vague, indefinite future, whereas the organization would kick your butt right now if you didn't toe the line.

  Seriously, though, I believe that the Witnesses use the reactions of others to one's conduct as a control mechanism. It's true that there are scriptures that tell us not to do things that will stumble our brothers. But it seems reasonable to me that these texts are referring to doing things that are "marginal" scripturally, or that are the subject of some controversy in the church. Otherwise, we could never do anything, since someone can surely find fault with anything we do.

  However, when the elders can't come up with a scriptural reason why you shouldn't do something they don't want you to do, they can always conjure up an image of some hypothetical person who will be offended and stumbled by your actions. That way, they still have a "scriptural" basis for their counsel. An example might be beards on men; there's certainly nothing unscriptural about men having them, but some persons in society might conclude that a brother with a beard was expressing his rebellion against the establishment (since there has been no change in the popular culture whatever since the 1960's ), and be offended and stumbled away from "the truth" by that brother's actions. (Actually, I think the fact that they make unbiblical rules about such things is more likely to repel people than the idea of a JW with a beard).

  Nonetheless, it's a pretty good catch-all control mechanism, if you stop and think about it.
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  garybuss

  Organization = God. Jw's fear organization = God.
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  Oxnard Hamster

  So out of curiosity... when you were a Witness, was there a difference to you between the judgment of the Witnesses and the judgment of God?

  I was never craptized, but I got the vibes that given the fact elders can lower the boom on you and disfellowship you, then no, there is no difference between the judgement of witnesses and the judgement of God as far as JWs are concerned.
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  dustyb

  i know that most JW's think that if you piss off the organization you piss off god. my g/f for instance thought that the words of the elders was god's spoken words until i straightened her out. i used to think that way too ( a long long time ago when i was a good little dubby kid), until i realized one day that God wasn't going to rip my balls off for making mistakes. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids!
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  A Paduan

  The org / elders = the tangible manifestation of "god" - indeed the only connection to "god"

  It's an age old type of thing - the hands through which "god" is encountered - they are the 'special ones' who are the go betweens (mediators) - the ones who understand "god" (i.e. their own idea of an idol who is simply like an imaginary beast).

  Whether it's virgins at the volcano, or arrangements for microphone priveleges - there is always a group, or one, who is appointed to know about "god", what "god" wants / says, how he feels about things etc etc.
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  greatteacher

  Just out of curiosity:
  
  Are there any christian religious organizations where the followers seperate the fear of the organization and the fear of god (not in word only)?
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  shotgun

  In all my years as a dub whenever a problem or situation arises the council has always been...see what the society has to say from the publications..never lets go to the bible. They usually only go to the bible after the publications. If the bible does not say specifically then its rely on the FDS.
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  NeonMadman

  Are there any christian religious organizations where the followers seperate the fear of the organization and the fear of god (not in word only)?

  Sure, lots of Protestant churches are that way (though certainly not all). For example, I go to a Baptist church. I go there because I want to, not because of some organizational injunction or even because the Bible commands assembling with other believers. I go because I enjoy the activities and the fellowship. I feel no pressure whatsoever to do anything for organizational reasons; anything that is part of my religious life is there because of my relationship with Jesus Christ, not because of an organization.

  Now, of course, I go to church at 9:30 on Sunday because that's when people are there to engage in worship - but if I found that time inconvenient, I could always go to a different church. If I don't feel like going on a certain Sunday, I can stay home without repercussions (and I have occasionally). The closest I've ever come to feeling pressured by the church "organization" was when several people tried to talk me into joining the choir. I had gone to practice once, and decided it wasn't for me, at least not right now. There were 2 or 3 people who came to me afterward to tell me how badly the choir needed more male voices and to ask me to reconsider. I simply said that I didn't think I could join at this time, and that was the end of the matter. I certainly wasn't shunned by anyone for refusing.

  So at least in one church that I can attest to, "fear of the organization" is effectively nonexistent. And this is a church that practices church discipline (though the pastor says he has only experienced three cases in his 30 years of ministry). No one spys on you; no one asks personal questions about your lifestyle. If I'm there, great. If I'm not, there's no one to account to and no questions are asked. The people are generally kind and friendly, so what is there to fear?