Watchtower slaves should be paid for what they lost.
Should Reparations Be Given To Relatives of Slaves?
by minimus 69 Replies latest jw friends
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Simon
What exactly should the US government or Europeans apologize for? Specifically? No one "took their land", because no one owned or developed any land. They had territory they lived in and had treaties to keep large parts of it. Just because someone had ancestors that traded property for beads, guns and / or whiskey doesn't mean they were the victims of any genocide.
There were wars, and in wars bad things happen and people die. Just because you win a war doesn't make you evil. If it did, we'd have to apologize to the Germans and the Japanese, and yet we don't ... why don't we? Why should we?
Should Europeans receive apologies and reparations for all their invasions and losses? If not, why not. What's the difference?
And black slaves who were sent to the Americas were the most fortunate of those taken as slaves. As evidence for that, I submit the large black population of the US compared to the non existent black population of other slave destinations that received 10x as many.
Again, white Europeans / Americans were the only people in history to fight against and end slavery and did so almost as soon as they became involved in the practice after themselves being victims of slavery.
The notion of reparations is clearly unworkable and would be totally unjust in practice. You'd have families of those who never owned slaves, who died fighting to free slaves, and who may now be poor being told they had to pay money to wealthy people like the Obamas who's ancestors did own slaves.
But the point of this isn't to make up for any injustices at all. You can't do that hundreds of years after the fact by creating new ones, just to feed resentments. The purpose is precisely to create injustices and bad feeling - the democrats want to keep their negroes in line, on their plantation, working for them, but providing votes instead of cotton.
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LoveUniHateExams
I submit the large black population of the US compared to the non existent black population of other slave destinations that received 10x as many - exactly, spot on Simon.
I was in two minds about bringing this up but I will now.
The Arabs bought black slaves, and it happened for a much longer time than the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.
The Trans-Saharan Slave Trade started before the Islamic prophet Muhammad was born and ended in 1962 (that was the year that Saudi Arabia and Yemen bowed to international pressure and finally stopped slavery).
And yet, the Caribbean, the US and Brazil have full-blooded black people, the descendants of slaves, ... but Saudi and other Arab countries don't have full-blooded black people as a proportion of their current population.
^^^ Why is this? ^^^
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Jehalapeno
Simon:
I tend to agree with you on some of what you're saying, but the US broke treaty after treaty with the Native Americans.
And also, the "bought and paid for" comment regarding their land is technically correct, but in reality morally bankrupt. They were definitely taken advantage of. "Here's some beads and shit, give us your land." Yeah, they made the transaction, but it wasn't exactly an equitable exchange of value, even though the Native Americans didn't think so.
You are correct, though, that the "noble savage" meme was extremely racist and patronizing.
Regarding culture, we tend to forget that the stereotypical native American popularized by US media wasn't the only type of Native American. The Maya, Aztecs and Inca all had relatively advanced cultures. They viewed violence and human life differently than western culture, true, but they were advancing in other ways also.
Anthropologists agree that the lack of domesticated beasts of burden in the Americas (equines) likely contributed to their slow growth on the tech tree, to borrow a gaming phrase.
There is speculation that if Columbus had been just 150-200 years late, the Native populations of Mexico and Central America may have rivaled the European forces in strength.
All of that is conjecture in hindsight, of course.
Anyhow, in the US, Native Americans get lots of government benefits, so I don't think they are due any reparations...they're already receiving them in a way...but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.
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road to nowhere
The thing that reduced the black population in Arab countries was the practice of castrating all Male slaves. Women (girls) were kept for other uses so the standard Arab is probably a bit darker than 500 years ago
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LoveUniHateExams
The thing that reduced the black population in Arab countries was the practice of castrating all Male slaves - yes, exactly.
The Arabs bought black boys from black slavers. Then, they castrated the boys. The eunuch slaves couldn't have children and were thus deemed safe to serve Arab households.
The Arabs didn't bother with things like Western medicine or anaesthetic, they just lopped off the black boys' genitalia - testicles, scrotum and penis - just like that. Many boys died because of this awful, inhumane procedure. The fatalities of the Arab slave trade dwarfs that of those slaves brought to the Americas.
But the Arabs had thought of this. Don't worry, they had it all worked out. They were rich and they simply bought many more black boys, and lopped off their genitalia.
Some survived.
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Simon
I tend to agree with you on some of what you're saying, but the US broke treaty after treaty with the Native Americans.
I agree. Promises were broken by all sides, some more than others and with greater consequences.
You are correct, though, that the "noble savage" meme was extremely racist and patronizing.
It's actually a misunderstanding of the use of the word. "Noble" doesn't pertain to character as we may understand the word, it's simply that they hunted - an occupation reserved for nobles in Europe. A better translation meaning-wise if that they were "hunter-savages". Sounds less, well, "noble" right?
Regarding culture, we tend to forget that the stereotypical native American popularized by US media wasn't the only type of Native American. The Maya, Aztecs and Inca all had relatively advanced cultures. They viewed violence and human life differently than western culture, true, but they were advancing in other ways also.
They were advanced in some ways, but had a culture built on bloodshed and barbaric sacrifice. I don't mourn them as I don't think the end of those cultures was a huge loss to humanity. I think natives of the Americas are better off today, with European cultural influence, despite everything else that happened to them.
Anthropologists agree that the lack of domesticated beasts of burden in the Americas (equines) likely contributed to their slow growth on the tech tree, to borrow a gaming phrase.
Yes, they lacked horsepower literally so were always going to lose the industrialization race compared to both Europe and Asia. They also lacked innovation, partly because they lacked industrialization.
This is part of the reason that "blaming white people" is unfair. It's simply historical circumstances. They were lucky that the culture that finally met them was white Europeans and not Arab.
There is speculation that if Columbus had been just 150-200 years late, the Native populations of Mexico and Central America may have rivaled the European forces in strength.
Possibly, I think theres been a politically driven trend lately to hype up the population so I don't think they would.
There's a good 'alternate timeline' book about the South Americans conquering Europe (can't remember the name)
All of that is conjecture in hindsight, of course.
The conjecture tends to put the numbers higher. Estimates based on DNA usually suggest lower numbers. But yes, maybe we'll never know.
Anyhow, in the US, Native Americans get lots of government benefits, so I don't think they are due any reparations...they're already receiving them in a way...but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.
They seem to be a people that struggle to excel in the modern world. Some of that is due to government dependency, a condition that has also blighted black communities in recent years as well. They also seem to suffer from lots of money being poured in, but little accountability - some few who run the show control things so they get rich while the typical "indians" people see are drunken bums.
Here in Calgary we have a "first nations" tribe on our doorstep. White people have to go sort out everything from fires to them being overrun with stray dogs because they can't seem to manage running a basic small town. Things are built, things are abandoned. Maybe that's part of why they never excelled as a nation group? Black communities seem similar - lots of small scale tribalism, not much "we the people" as a group and when there is it's only based on skin color which isn't enough (principles are a better basis for success).
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Tara N Seals
Reparations should be PAID to descendants of slaves, yes. I’m willing to settle for 40 acres of arable land and a female mule.
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Jehalapeno
There's a good 'alternate timeline' book about the South Americans conquering Europe (can't remember the name)
I believe you're thinking of Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Orson Scott Card. Great speculative Sci-Fi, although some of Card's books have obvious influence from his Mormon background. Ender's Game is probably his best, though.
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redvip2000
The interesting thing about this, is that if there was somehow a payment of reparations ( which I disagree with), it would not even make a dent on the constant stream of accusations and grievances from those who use slavery as the scape goat for their inability to move up socially.
That money would quickly be spent on new clothes, cars, tvs, etc, and once that ran out, we would back at the same place we are now, where we have a community that glorifies street thuggery, sees going to prison as a badge of honor, and channels their financial resources to buying expensive sneakers and shinny car rims, instead of taking stock of their own lives. And yes, I'm generalizing for the sake of argument.
There are people, that come to this country every week, with no family, no English skills, no support system, no money, no job, nothing. Yet within a few months, they are working two jobs and saving money, then saving for a house, and within years they are part of the middle class, sending their kids to college.
Amazing how much upwards social mobility this country can offer, for those who want to do a little more than sticking their hand out waiting for entitlements.