Jehovah's witnesses believe in Tranys. (page 2)

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

dubstepped,

That is an interesting post. If we take your passage from Thomas’ gospel literally then it is the answer to mickbobcat’s OP.

Let’s say this conversation took place , do you think that Jesus was possibly using figurative language hoping these rough guys could grasp that women given equal opportunity could “make herself male” , grasp instruction and claim the sand measure of agency to hold their spiritual ground ? Maybe Jesus really thought women were ‘deserving’ but there wasn’t a way to get such a foreign concept across to Peter and the boys without using this crude illustration.

That said, Jesus could never get away with that language now even if he meant well. I admit l would like to think Jesus was being clumsily poetic.and was trying to push back against his culture.

The Watchtower leaders don’t try imo. They are slicker with their words than Peter but their attitudes are not much better.

Anony Mous

@Shot: the gospel of Thomas was cut from canon for being too extreme, not for being wrong.

The council of Nicea were more worried about attracting new members to their religion in a time of relative progressivism, women could own land and titles at that point in Roman culture and the Romans were extremely liberal in what their deities allowed, so the more extreme and weird versions of a rather conservative Rabbi in a rather anti-Roman, Jewish-Orthodox religion (what Jesus supposedly said or did) were cut or rewritten.

dubstepped

Lol, Jesus may or may not have existed, but I enjoy watching people jump through hoops to try to explain the insanity of the Bible or gnostics. I just posted the verse for fun. This whole conversation is dumb and the OP likes to be inflammatory. So have fun!

Diogenesister

ShotwhiletryingToEscape! must be tough for these poor little kids.

Yes I’m really sorry, particularly for kids who grow up in places where medicine isn’t available and intersex kids who’ve gone through a male puberty with YXX chromosomes are raised female. Then when they excel at sports and it’s discovered, they are labelled as “cheats”.

MBC So does the cult believe in the transgender crap?

Nah....just anointed women who will change into male Kenny Rogers clones!!!

Dubstepped

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Dude I can’t believe what you found!! No wonder this scripture didn’t make it into the final cut!!

Anony Mous: I think for a long time they actually held that women could not be anointed.

Earnest I have no reason to believe that is true. Can you provide any support for this assertion?

Earnest I think you’re right, they’ve always believed women had a heavenly hope, because in Russell’s time they all did. They even had women directors/Trustees of the Watchtower Corp. If anything they’ve become more hardline in their attitude to women...a hangover of the misogyny of Rutherford, Knorr and Franz.

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

dubstepped—

Kicking ideas around without hostility is the very thing we were forbidden as JWs. So thanks.

Did Jesus-as-Christ-God’s-Son ever exist? Dunno, Don’t care. But we know there have always been individuals that push against the system . So I don’t think it far-fetched that some carpenter back then could have pushed back about things in his (religious) community too. Too bad the words of Jesus-the-Carpenter became institutionalized and buried by religion. Then folk don’t get to kick around the moving target we call life.

I enjoyed your post whatever your reason for engaging. That selection made discussion richer. For one thing —it reflects the deep misogyny of that community —sort of a hot mic moment.

For myself, Jesus didn’t have to be the Son of God to be inspirational. And he probably was a bit of a nut case in much the same way thst I was a JW nut case. But he ( like many on this board) felt the wrongness of it somehow. So I feel sympathy for Jesus for kind of going crazy .

So, stripping the Jesus story of the divine parts still is still inspiring to me because he did push back against cruel and unfair behaviors justified by religion . If he didn’t do it perfectly so what? I don’t worship him. In fact he is the more inspirational for not being perfect - for bring a human-and still trying.

Mickbobcat’s OP— even if it was lobbed as an incendiary— ultimately helped reveal the Watchtower’s persistent ugliness toward women. And your “Thomas” post underscored a Judeo/Christian legacy of deep misogyny: females not deserving of life.

So the conversation was not entirely dumb (although l initially treated it like that in the beginning ) Then DougMason stepped in with his serious consideration and the matter was on another footing.

At this point I will leave the conversation. I know I have gone far enough. And thank you all.

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

EDIT:

Hello, Diogenesister!

I posted without seeing your comments—haha! what a balance between serious and hilarious. I will watch from the sidelines ;-)

Rafly

The bible states that the 144,000 anointed are to be virginal men.

Gal.3 says ......

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It would appear that the jurisdiction /class between men and women was used as metaphor of equality, not that there is going to occur a sex change when you reach heaven.

Doug Mason

Shotwhile...

I have both volumes of "Insight" on my computer. I could try to send them to you via Dropbox, but to do that you would need to PM me your email address or email me directly -- you will find my address on all of the material I write. I promise you that I do not have the time or the inclination to hassle or to follow up. unless you were to contact me further.

I can assure you that page 371 of Volume 2 of "Insight" does not have an entry for "men" although that same page has a lengthy article that runs on to the following page on "menstruation", including a lesson on biology.

Doug

Doug Mason

Rafty,

The people who wrote Revelation were also very specific about the exact number who would come from each of the specified Jewish clans. No ifs, no buts.

The writers also said these 144,000 needed protecting because they were living on earth while God's fury is being poured out.

Doug

Anony Mous

In regards the 144,000 not being women, the verse they use to justify the number says “have not defiled themselves with women”.
This implies virgin males.

I can’t find explicitly a mention there are no women, but the justification and general interpretation amongst witnesses would have some look twice if you were a female partaker.

I know there was a case where a women in our circuit didn’t want to wear a headdress because she believed she was anointed. Her argument to the elders and CO was that she was going to be ruling over them in the future as a king. That went up and down the chain with the ruling eventually coming that she wasn’t a king yet and that she should be like any other women as her claim to be anointed could not be verified and she could be mistaken (read: crazy). She lost her pioneer status and wasn’t invited to talk at circuit meetings after that anymore and I think she quietly left the JW. This was in the 90s before the whole “they could be crazy” theory developed.

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

Thanks, Doug. You have PM

Jehovah's witnesses believe in Tranys.

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