the seven times of Daniel chapter 4

by dustyb 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  dustyb

  Ok, i was reading a website the other day about Daniel 4 (the seven times prophecy), and i just want to get the opinion of others here. Because obviously the JW "seven times" is extremely flawed, and i just wanted to see how this sounded to you guys.

  Daniel 4

  This chapter describes Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the big tree, which grew great and reached unto heaven and was visible to the end of all the earth. The tree was cut down and banded until seven times passed over it. Verse 22 explains that the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar, who was ruling over the earth. Verses 24 through 26 describe the interpretation of the dream by saying that Nebuchadnezzar would be cut down until seven times had passed over him and then his kingdom would be returned to him. The rest of the chapter describes the fulfillment of the prophecy when it came upon Nebuchadnezzar. This information provides us with a model or typical prophecy.

  The Model

  In the model Nebuchadnezzar was the definite direct object in the account. That definite object took the simple action of being cut down from the subject, God. Thus, God cut down Nebuchadnezzar for a period of seven times. Note that the model describes a specific subject, a definite direct object, and simple action. This prophecy also has a larger fulfillment.

  The Larger Fulfillment

  It is not uncommon for the scriptures to use earthly kings in describing the activities of Satan the devil: the 28th chapter of Ezekiel provides a very good example. Here in Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar represents Satan in the larger application. And since there is no one greater than God, he remains God in the greater application of this account. Thus the larger or antitypical fulfillment describes how God cut down Satan's rule over the earth until seven times passed over him. The larger fulfillment of this prophecy and the larger period of seven times (2520 years) both fit the events described in the previous studies. So in the fulfillment of the larger model we find that Satan had rule over the earth until God interposed in 2492 BCE. Satan's rule was cut down for 2520 years until 29 CE when his kingdom was returned to him. This is the meaning of the antitypical fulfillment of Daniel chapter 4. The seven times applies to the time period from 2492 BCE to 29 CE.

  No Model in Scripture Points to 1914

  There is nothing in the Bible that provides a model for applying a period of seven times to the years 607 BCE to 1914 CE. The Witnesses, nevertheless, have made up a model of their own, but it does not match the model in Daniel 4. They say that God cut down his own rule in 607 BCE and started it again in 1914 CE. In their model God (subject) cut down his own rule (reflexive action). The model the Witnesses use does not have a definite direct object. The state of the action is different in their model. They use reflexive action in their model. In the model in Daniel 4 God (subject) cut down (simple action) Nebuchadnezzar (definite object) for seven times. The model in Daniel 4 has a definite direct object. In Daniel 4 the object takes the action from the subject. The model in Daniel 4 uses simple action. Applying a period of seven times to 607 - 1914 does not match the model in Daniel 4. The Witnesses have made up their own unscriptural model, which they base on Luke 21:24 because that scripture uses the word times or seasons. They are using a different period of seven times and claiming that that period applies to the antitypical model in Daniel 4. But their model does not match the model in Daniel 4. The times or seasons mentioned in Luke 21:24 applies to the years from 67 CE to 70 CE when Jerusalem was tread upon by the nations and destroyed. They stretch that brief period of 3 and 1/2 years into a model that extends form 607 BCE until 1914 CE!

  T he Stretch

  In Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 Jesus was describing the events that were coming upon Jerusalem within one generation. This was the coming of the Son of man for the destruction of Jerusalem. The Witnesses extend this account into the 20th century by claiming that it fits into their model. They use this same stretching technique when they identify the kings of the North and South in Daniel 11. The stretch is also applied to Daniel 7 and 12. The stretch is again applied to the prophecies in Revelation. They claim that Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 96 CE, but the facts show that it was written before the destruction in 64 CE. Many of the prophecies in Revelation apply to the destruction of Jerusalem and that of the city of Rome. By claiming that the Revelation was written after the fall of Jerusalem they wrongly apply the fulfillment of many prophecies to the early 20th century.

  With all this stretching the Witnesses have changed the meaning of the fulfillment of many Bible prophesies to suite their own purposes. When the time frame of Bible prophecy is shifted in this manner the result is such that the true objects of the prophecies in question are ignored and false objects are selected in their place. In their manipulation of prophecy the Witnesses often leave the state of the action the same, but they change the identities of the objects so that they take on different identities. All this is the result of applying a period of 2520 years to the wrong time frame. Consequently, their errors have produced many extraneous results, which have resulted in many unscriptural doctrines and raised serious theological problems for their members.

  The End Result of the Stretch

  The end result of the stretch is that the Witnesses claim there is a remnant of the 144,000 on earth today. Those of the leadership of the society claim to be of this special remaining "priestly" class. By claiming this "special status" they have secured for themselves a rather large following. There is, however, no scriptural reason to assume that there is any remnant of the 144,000 alive in the flesh today, and neither has there been anyone from that class alive on earth for at least the last 19 centuries! The remaining studies will demonstrate the truthfulness of the foregoing statements.

  (written by http://members.aol.com/gparrishjr/d4.html)

  some of it i found interesting, but it boggles my mind just as much as the JW version. Your thoughts?
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  peacefulpete

  Daniel was completed around 165 Bc, 400 years after the supposed events described in it. the book itself gives no hint that the 7 times refers to anything other than the Nebuchanezzar story. (which is fiction). Eschatologically obsessed Adventists will never cease to reinterpret the Bible so as to perpetuate the myth that the Bible has anything to do with future events. I will defend any part of this comment that you want clarification on. It not requested then I will assume you chose to ignore me.
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  Gopher

  Any time-based interpretation of Bible sayings is a stretch. That site clings to the "2520 year" interpretation of the seven times. Believing that interpretation forces you to accept some weird date as the beginning or the end of some historical period -- like 2492 BC or like 1914 AD.

  Interesting point, Pete -- about the Nebuchadnezzar story being a myth. Is there any historic verification of the story about him losing his sanity and becoming beastlike for a period of time, or is this only found in the Hebrew history account? That account never seemed really credible, but just one of those things that Bible readers have to accept "with faith".
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  City Fan

  I'd like to add that the story was originally about Nabonidus who spent a number of years away from Babylon in Teima.

  The Qumran Dead Sea Scroll text 4QPrNab (The Prayer of Nabonidus) talks of Nabonidus being stricken with an evil desease for 7 years by god, while he prayed to idols. His sins are forgiven, and a Jewish diviner tells him to give honor to the name of God. Another Qumran fragment refers to a disturbing dream of the king.
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  peacefulpete

  This topic has come up a number of times here, has anyone the ability to provide links to the previous discussions for Dusty? The search function doesn't work for me. There have been some good comments about Antiochus Epiphanes and dating the book over the past year.
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  Loris

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/61750/1.ashx

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/62659/1.ashx
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  peacefulpete

  thankyou. dusty, aside from the delusions of JCannon who proclaims himself the messiah, there are some great posts at these two threads. the 70 weeks of years pseudoprophecy had nothing to do with Jesus, but rather the actions of Antiochus. Only thru deliberately poor translating and reinterpretation was this claimed to be about Jesus by modern Fundementalists. This too has been discussed at length on this forum.
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  JCanon

  Of course, lots of people will have their own interpretations for this, so I can only point out some of the details of why I agree with the JWs basic interpretation though they have the wrong date for the fall of Jerusalem in 607BCE, that occurred in 529BCE proven now by the VAT4956 astrotext.

  At any rate, there was a comment about some kings being fulfilled by Satan and then this was applied to Nebuchadnezzar. In this regard, witnesses apply Nebuchadnezzar to Jesus and not Satan. This could be established since Nebuchadnezzar is called "My Servant" in a couple of places and thus you have a connection with Jesus. So the OPTION is there to go either way. If it's Satan then Satan's rule is interrupted for 2520 years and if it represents the Davidic kingship connected with the Messiah, then the interruption is of that kingship for 2520 years.

  But other scriptures come into play here as well as the rest of the prophecy which shows the tree, after being banded for "7 times" is allowed to regrow and flourish and this is a permanant situation, thus the actual fulfillment by Nebuchadnezzar is only partial and the kingdom of God the greater fulfillment where God's kingdom, like a tree, will last forever after being reestablished. Furthermore, per other Biblical references, Satan and mankind would rule for approximately 6000 and then Christ when he returns for a "sabbath" rest from that rule for the millennium. So an interruption of Satan's rule for 2520 years is a ridiculous notion.

  JW CORRECTIONS: Of course, the date for the fall of Jerusalem is debated, either 607, 587 or 529BCE as some ot he main dates. I choose 529BCE because of the astrotext evidence that the entire NB period was revised by 57 years. The text cleverly contains BOTH dates, the original and the revised. The original dating reference is year 511BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar which means his 19th year falls in 529BCE. IF you choose this academic position then the 2520 years ends in 1992.

  NEBUCHADNEZZAR SERVES 7 YEARS: If you follow Biblical prophecy closely, you'll note that after Jerusalem was destroyed then all the other nations listed would follow, including Tyre who was to be "forgotten for 70 years". But Jerusalem was to drink first this bitter cup of Nebuchadnezzar representing total destruction and desolation. Thus Jerusalem fell in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar but the 70 years for all the nations and the last deportees from Judeah did not occur until 4 years later in year 23. The records for this period of NB are missing from Babylon with the only reference we have in year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar where he invades Egypt. Thus from year 23 or 24 until year 37, a period of 13 years, Nebuchadnezzar could have been off his throne for 7 years. Likely years 24 or 25 through 41-42. I note this because some claim that the siege of Tyre which Josephus reports took 13 years didn't begin until after Jerusalem was destroyed eliminating the idea that there as a 7-year period when he was not active as king. But Josephus specifically says this 13-year siege began in year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar and thus would have ended in year 20, a year after the fall of Jerusalem in year 19. For some reason, even though Josephus' 13-year reference to the siege is the only reference, the beginning date in year 7 is ignored by George Parrish and Olof Jonsson. ??? Thus even the "7 times" as 7 years when Nebuchadnezzar would be off his throne runs out of time from year 19 to 32 or years 23 to 36 since Nebuchadnezzar then attacks Egypt in repayment for that siege in year 37. When you stick strictly to the Bible and Josephus the years are there though.

  THE TREE AS GOD'S KINGDOM: Again as noted by the "model" since the tree is restored and it becomes a huge tree again and lasts forever, this is easily applied to symbolic of God's kingdom and being chopped down and interrupted by Nebuchadnezzar until Christ comes again to the earth. Incidentally, Christ is often called "Sprout" in reference to the second coming. He is said to be a "sprout" from the STUMB OF JESSE. This "stump" of Jesse is the Davidic kingship that has been cut down, the same tree. So it's all related. "sprout" is specifically associated with the second coming though (See Zechariah 3 where high-priest Joshua becomes a king and is called "Sprout")

  THE BANDING OF SILVER AND COPPER: Note the order in which the bands ocurr. First silver and then copper. This represents the ethnic background, generally, or the general"complexion" of the Messiah at the first and second coming. The first time he arrives as a Jew, a white man, represented by the silver. The second time he arrives in the form of "copper", an Ethiopian or Egyptian complected Messiah like Melchizedek, meaning his ancestry was not traceable or significant at the second coming. Jesus arriving in the flesh as an ordinary man, the prodigal son and appearing as the "Ethiopian eunuch" fullfills the second banding of "copper" to reflect this ethnic character.

  "7 TIMES": Finally, the 7 times become 2520 years because 3-1/2 times are 1260 days which is doubled. Since the Jews were given "a day for a year" this is presumed to apply to some fulfillment of 2520 years. If the tree represents the Davidic kingship which then becomes a STUMP out of which Sprout returns after 7 times, then 2520 years could be counted from the time of the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming. Based upon the critically corrected date of 529BCE, the reappearance of a king "who has the legal right" to the throne of David would have/should have appeared in 1992. This date, of course is confirmed by cross-reference of two other major and 2 supplemental chronology prophies all pointing to this same year or within a range of years:

  Major:

  7 times prophecy: 1992 (529-1992, 2520 years)

  1335 days: (1290+45=1335, from end of gentile times (1947) to 45 years later; 1947plus 45 =1992)

  70th week: Christ leaves at first coming at mid 70th week ending gift and sacrifice by ending the animal sacrifices but establishes the "Lord's supper" celebration in it's place to be celebrated until he returns when he will eat it once again once and then that would again "end gift and sacrifice". This means Christ arrives within a year of mid-70th week during last days. 70 weeks is 490 years. The 70th week ended in 36CE. 4 x 490 is 1960 meaning the last 70th week ends in 1996 and mid-week Passover is April 6, 1993. Thus Christ arrives sometime after Passover 1992 and Passover 1993.

  Supplemental:

  "Last Generation": The Messiah must arrive within a generation of 1914. Biblically defined as 80 years (Ps. 90:10) prior to 1994.

  "Vineyard Workers": To work for 11 hours in the harvest from 1914. A "half hour" per Revelation is 3.5 times so an hour is 7 years. 11 x 7 is 77 years. So the work would be at least 77 years from 1914 to 1991. The "last hour" is thus from 1991 to 1998 when the workers would get paid. Since the Messiah is not a king yet when the work begins, but he leaves to return when he "gains kingly power", he would not arrive before 1991.

  4-year range: When you combine the 5 prophecies above, the Vineyard and Last Generation prophecies limits the range of the second coming from 1991 to 1994.

  1 -year range: The 7 times prophecy which is 2520 years from 529 to 1992 limits it to within a year.

  4-month range: Combining the 1335 days prophecy and the 70th-mid-week prophecies, since the "end of the gentile times" was November 30, 1947 when the official Jewish exile ended and they regained control over their own land, this establishes a 4-month range when compared to the mid-week prophecy which limits Christ's return to no later than Passover of 1993 which is the mid-70th-week Passover. Thus a 4-month period from November 30, 1992 to April 6, 1993 is established for when the Messiah must arrive for the second coming.

  Bottom line, except for the DATE of 607BCE, the JW interpretation of the "7 times" is right on the money. Even though I understand that original concept didn't come from them but from Miller or somebody else, they just made it popular as part of their 1914 belief system.

  JC
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  JCanon

  thankyou. dusty, aside from the delusions of JCannon who proclaims himself the messiah,

  You can't prove I'm not the Messiah. Those knowing their scriptures know that I must be. So it's a matter of your not knowing the scriptures well enough that's the problem, not my "delusions".

  Start here: There are two WAVE OFFERINGS. One WITH LEAVEN and ONE WITHOUT.

  The FIRST (as in FIRST COMING) is WITHOUT.

  The SECOND (as in SECOND COMING) is WITH.

  What is leaven in the Bible? SIN, IMPERFECTION.

  What is the significance of UNFERMENTED CAKES in relation to Jesus and the last supper/Passover? SINLESSNESS OF HIS BODY.

  The wave offerings are the "first fruits" which is fulfilled by Christ and his followers. The first wave offering represented Christ's sinless physical body being waved. The second WITH leaven suggests a change for the second coming, one in the imperfect flesh. Simply meaning Christ is not born as a child from an unfertilized human ovum but takes up the identity of some grown individual at the second coming. He only needed to appear in the flesh as a perfect man "once for all time" since he was to be sacrificed. Once giving up that body he can't take it up again. But no need, he can "borrow" any body of his followers to do what he has to do in the flesh at the second coming. The scriptures support this and define this second coming in many ways, including physical characteristics of this Messiah and specific year he would arrive. If you haven't gotten to this point, then you have no posiition to claim anybody is or is not the Messiah. Until you get this RIGHT, it is YOU who are delusional and not me. Sorry. Prove by Scripture I'm not he then fine. Just saying it because it's too much for you to believe based upon lack of Biblicall knowledge is not good enough. The Biblical Messiah must arrive precisely the way my circumstances unfold. Your presumptions are based upon false knowledge or lack of knowledge.

  JC
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  ellderwho

  Hey Canon,

  Prove by Scripture I'm not he then fine.

  So if I can, then your not the Messiah?

  E