Some churches have taken the step to allow gays, women instructing men ect. But its not a JW thing. Its a bible thing. If you are going to believe in the bible as the word of god you have to believe that women are not to be in a position over a man, that gays are gross sinners and the bible condemns them to death. Personally I don't care what two people of the same sex get up to, its their business as long as no one is injured or you are publicly preforming sex acts. But if I were a bible believer I would have to either just ignore parts of the bible or hate Gays and Women equality with men. Thems the facts.
I don't get why some point to the no tolerance for gays and subjugation of women as a JW thing.
by blownaway 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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blownaway
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Wild_Thing
It has always confused me as to why "Christians" are so willing to condemn gays and subjugate women because the Bible says so, but they don't want to stone their children to death for disobeying (Deut. 21:18-21) or offer up their children as a burnt sacrifice (Gen. 22:2 and Judges 11:30-35).
Also, if you're a man, you can't be a JW if you don't have a penis or your balls have been crushed (Deut. 23:1). I don't understand why they don't check to make sure when they go over the baptism questions. I mean ... it's in the Bible.
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Xanthippe
But if I were a bible believer I would have to either just ignore parts of the bible or hate Gays and Women equality with men. Thems the facts.
Yeah I guess you would if your head was still stuck in the Bronze Age. Many Christians, and I'm not one of them btw being an atheist, try to accept the Bible as the work of imperfect men guided by God.
They're not fundamentalists so don't believe every word literally. They try to bring Christianity up to date with compassion. It's not the way I wanted to go but I can see where they're coming from.
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TD
It comes down to whether you view the Bible as a single contiguous book penned by God himself or whether you view it as a loosely organized anthology, mixing plenary inspiration with history, genealogy, songs and personal letters where the author is open and honest that they're stating opinion.
JW's as we both know, hold the former view, but not all Christians do.
I'm on the atheist end of agnosticism, so I'm not trying to be an apologist here. At the same time, (And in the interests of fairness) Christianity is bigger than American fundamentalism.
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dubstepped
Former JWs tend to speak about things that were relevant to the JWs. JWs don't tolerate gays and subjugate women. Although the Bible may be the root cause, often ex-JWs are talking about things that went on in the JWs. It's not necessary to always get to the root in a discussion about a particular thing. Clearly the Bible states both things pretty clearly, but people pointing to a thing in the JWs isn't the same as saying that it originated with or is only a matter of the JWs. Additionally, sometimes people go through all kinds of apologetics to get around what the Bible says on those subjects to as to keep their faith in the book. -
Finkelstein
Short answer = its a power thing, god is power, why do men like the leaders of the WTS say they have god's power or holy spirit ? = power
God is male because he has to be all powerful in creating the universe and fighting off other evil weaker gods.
Men want their gods to be all powerful because when they proclaim they are inline or channeled to these gods, it makes them all powerful.
That's why the subjugation toward woman, woman weren't even allowed to speak inside temples, they were only allowed inside to clean or pray .
The anti gay doctrine is common in a lot religious organizations, it comes out of human ignorance of what is genetic inherent human sexuality, the ancient Hebrews had their reasons as they thought it was an abomination to god's creation.
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steve2
When I reference JWs "view" on homosexuality, I don't question their view per se, but the way the JW literature speaks about but not to gays and lesbians. Look at JW videos - even the Sophia one in which one of her class mates has "two Moms" - it's obviously talking about lesbians but not once is the word used and, again, it is about "them" but is not talking to them. When you think about the untold numbers of those raised in the religion who have come out, you'd think JW org would be trying to reach them to "help" them. But no. So while I do not question JWs or the Bible's views, I question the attitudes that often go along with those views.
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OnTheWayOut
Xanthippe: Many Christians, and I'm not one of them btw being an atheist, try to accept the Bible as the work of imperfect men guided by God.
They're not fundamentalists so don't believe every word literally. They try to bring Christianity up to date with compassion. It's not the way I wanted to go but I can see where they're coming from.
While I might feel that the Bible doesn't allow for such a view of itself, because it declares itself "God's Word," that does seem like a natural evolution of Christian belief.
Eastern relgion has a history of gods and godesses and beliefs and rituals, and has evovled to people feeling free to reject and accept what parts they want. Many are diwn to accepting wisdom and ritual or meditation alone, but have dismissed the supernatural aspect. So I guess Christians might do the same.
But the Bible is just so loaded with ammunition for various hatreds and for the belittling of women. When groups still have to debate how far to accept 'the word,' better to scrap it in my opinion.
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Diogenesister
Steve-oWhen you think about the untold numbers of those raised in the religion who have come out, you'd think JW org would be trying to reach them to "help" them. But no. So while I do not question JWs or the Bible's views, I question the attitudes that often go along with those views.
I couldn't agree more. Especially when you consider how many senior members are gay ( 2 governing body members that we know of), Bethel being an ideal way of avoiding marriage I imagine there are a higher than average proportion of gay men in Bethel directing things. You would certainly think they would reach out more to gay members.
As to women I'm sorry but Watchtower takes things WAY further than the Bible, even. Pheobe is a Deacon, or ministerial servant. Junia is named as an Apostle, travelling from one cong to another carrying messages and direction. Not allowing women to do ridiculous things such as hold mic's or or direct people to their seats at conventions, etc, takes things much further than the bible - the result of early leaders of Watchtower having poor relationships with their wives and/or feeling threatened by them/their intellect.
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TD
While I might feel that the Bible doesn't allow for such a view of itself, because it declares itself "God's Word," that does seem like a natural evolution of Christian belief.
The phrase, "It declares itself" is both anachronistic and circular.