OPERATION of & Sin Against the Holy Spirit!

by Amazing 13 Replies latest jw friends

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  Amazing

  When JWs ask one of the Anointed just how they "know" that they are anointed, they are really asking what it is that God does via the Holy Spirit that tells them they are chosen. A "Bolt" of Lightening? A rush of the Wind? A tingling Feeling? But, they are sadly disappointed to learn the same party line response. I have tried to deal with this by citing some good points on what happens, but, unfortunately it only works with JWs, and as ex-JWs it is not the same because we already view the WTS as a fraud. However, beyond how I understand 'anointing' then as limited and now as for all Christians, I am no better as explaining this. BUT ...

  One thing that Jesus and the Apostles noted was that sin against the Holy Spirit was a cause for never being forgiven. I will not debate my views on this now, however, I would like to point out something that I believe should cause concern for those who think Holy Spirit is operating on them:

  All of what we learned about sin against the Holy Spirit was not to actively blaspheme or resist its operation. These are sin of commission. What many fail to understand, and it may be what JWs fail to understand about their own religion, is that the 'sin' of Ommission against the Holy Spirit is just as serious.

  How does that Work? When a person claims that the Holy Spirit is operating on them when the Holy Spirit has made no such operation, or they do not have any substantive evidence to support such a claim, or worse yet, the evidence demonstrates that their claim must be false; hence false prophecy, then by that they or more precisely their religious leaders and organization are walkling where even Angels dare not tread.

  These people who claim the Holy Spirit operates to appoint Elders or leaders or chooses their religion over others, or they claim toi have a unique Divine mission, and they have nothing from God to prove it, they are liars, and it is suggestive are walking the same dangerous ground as the WTS, making themselves something more than they are.

  And this is an issue that sickens me, and with that when I run across people of this ilk, whether they are JW, fundies, or other wide-eye spirit-filled boobs, I get rather caustic. This, I suppose is one of the reasons that I finally left H20, too many spirit-filled people making claims ... and the shade of Watch Tower are too painful and strong to stomach such. Just venting. - Amazing
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  JUSTAMOM

  Greetings Amazing:

  Yes, I must agree with much if what you say.

  As evidence by continuous false prophecy, the Wt. are NOT who they say they are. They say they are NOT prophets and yet they prophecy.
  Are you or aren't you? When its convenient they are! We all know that.

  Yes, many claim to possess holy spirit. Whether or not they do or not the scriptures tell us "by their fruits you will recognize them."

  Also, when we "test out inspired utterances from them" if WE possess that spirit, our spirit will bear witness with theirs. That is the unity our lord wanted and prayed for for HIS disciples.

  Remember though, there are SHEEP and there are HIS SHEEP (John 10)
  There are the sheep that HEAR HIS VOICE AND FOLLOW THE LAMB WHEREVER HE GOES. Walking by faith and not sight. With spirit and truth. Allowing the spirit to control the flesh and not the flesh to control the spirit.
  These are christs brothers, the body of christ that are in the covenant and remain in union with it. They are also spiritual true virgins that are not yoked to any other except our lord. Not involved in spiritual adultery by allowing other churches to teach them.

  Then there are sheep that are separated during the 1,000 yr. reign that simply do GOOD to the LEAST of one of christs brothers.
  They are counted as sheep for doing good to the brothers although they themselves are not.

  Yes, granted on many occasions when you have received holy spirit, when the spirit in trying to teach you and you are listening, it does hit you like a 'chill'. That is a witness to you that a matter is established as a fact.

  So, as a fellow slave of christ, I hope you agree with my sharing. If not, let me know and why.

  May you have peace

  JUST A MOM (Kim)
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  Copernicus

  Amazing, I’d like to ask your opinion on something close to the subject of your thread. I am serious about this although it will probably sound strange. My wife and I have had numerous discussions about this without reaching any really acceptable explanation.

  We both acknowledge having felt “something” while attending meetings, studies, service, etc. I was so conditioned to believe that it was holy spirit, that I never questioned it as being otherwise at the time. In particular, while on shepherding calls, giving prayer or talks, I would have a real sense of what I thought was God’s presence, and impelling force. It was more then just my imagination, it was to definitive for that to have been the case (or so I think). And in all honesty, I’ve not felt it since leaving the org.

  So what was it? Has anyone else had this experience? I never thought of myself as being anointed – I’ve wondered if it was just some sort of endorphin mental trigger brought on by the stress of being a JW. But it seemed to be a sense of closeness to God. Or was it? It has bothered me for some time now. It’s the only thing that leaves me with even a shred of belief in God’s existence, despite the massive disillusionment I suffered as a result of my association with the WT.

  Thoughts?
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Copernicus: You asked and noted, "So what was it? Has anyone else had this experience? I never thought of myself as being anointed – I’ve wondered if it was just some sort of endorphin mental trigger brought on by the stress of being a JW. But it seemed to be a sense of closeness to God. Or was it?"

  I think euphoria or a euphoric feeling can come over anyone, for almost any reason, at almost anytime. But, we tend to associate that feeling when we are involved with God stuff. But, I have discovered that feeling when all my bills were paid, and I took a trip to the beach. I have had that feeling giving a good talk, and when winning a large business account. I have learned to let myself experience it in other areas in life, and find that it is simply a powerful emotion that comes with achieving or engaging in something that fulfills our sense of mission or duty or need for relief.

  I am not a psychologist, so I cannot speak with any authority or training. I have a measure of education on the topic, and between that and personal experience, I think my points may be correct.

  Take a trip this weekend just by your self. Go to a nice spot in the country or to the lake or beach, depending on where you live. Take along something you especially enjoy, a good book, some favorite food and drink. Put everything out of your mind as far as concerns and stress of live - and allow yourself to enjoy your humanity. If it helps, travel with a friend, spouse, or someone your feel especially connected to ... and allow yourself to totally enjoy and feel deserving of the time.

  Pray, talk, or walk quietly. Do whatever it takes to relax, and focus on your surroundings ... the beauty, the peace, the serenity. And pay close sttention to what you feel, and allow those feelings to emerge and explore them ... you may find that the feeling you have enjoyed when doing God stuff with the JWs may return ... don't force it, but let it flow naturally, and when it comes, just let it exist.

  One time, many years ago, while I was an Elder (anointed and all) I traveled to Houston, Texas from San Francisco on business. I took a trip to a local lake outside Houston to the northwest, I think. It was surrounded by large Douglas Firs (or what looked like them). I stayed until dark and watched the stars. I was all alone. Then that feeling came over me, and I felt peace.

  I was struggling financially at the time because I ran a second business while doing the Elder thing. My life was go-go-go. I never stopped to enjoy time, peace, self. Then, upon my return to San Francisco, I felt a sadness, not because I left Houston, but because of all the junk I had to go back to ... and I actually felt that intense spiritual emotion leave me like someone drained out all my energy. I thought at the time that Jehovah was lifting his spirit from me. But, years later, it was simply my realization that the moments of peace were coming to a close.

  Let me know if this works for you as it has for me. - Amazing
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  JUSTAMOM

  Greetings Coper...

  That feeling of the spirit I NEVER felt inside the org.

  I felt as I was taught that it was the spirit that was helping me accomplish all I did in the WT.

  Til ONE DAY because of my prayers that I had fervently been asking for for a few months on the feeding work and the treatment of the anointed inside under 100 yrs old lol...
  ones younger than they accept.

  I felt a voice in me that directed me to read like the entire bible. Something I had never done.

  Psalms, ALL the books of the prophets, the gospels, Revelation.

  I specifically heard

  GALATIONS CHPTR 4: 1-9

  "To quit touching the unclean thing, and then I will take you in."

  "To get out of her...if you do not not want to share with her in her sins and recieve her plagues."

  GALATIANS 5:1

  JOHN 6: 48-58

  I was completely overwhelmed that for the first time I KNEW I HAD TO PARTAKE.

  Since then, the spirit continually feeds me.

  For questioning the uninspired literature and agreeing with the scriptures, I was disfellowshipped for apostacy against my baptism and the org.

  OH WELLLLL.......
  And here I am! Never been more alive...

  JUST A MOM (Kim)
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  Copernicus

  It's late and I just got back home and read these posts.

  It gave me something to think about. . . thanks very much for the sincerity. What a subject, hey? And thanks for identifying. It meant a lot.

  More to come. . .tomorrow.

  Feeling lighter,
  Copernicus
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  proplog2

  With early Christians "God's spirit bore witness" by means of miraculous gifts. JW's claim that this is an inner feeling of having been chosen. But that "feeling" is accounted for as "our spirit" or personal conviction. Such "inner feeling" is insufficient if it doesn't receive some miraculous testimony in the form of some "gift".

  I have never met anyone who exhibited any extraordinary gift they could point to as god-given evidence of being "spirit-begotten". I doubt the so-called gifts that were claimed by the first century christians. There is no convincing evidence that resurrections, casting out of demons, healing of physical defects ever occurred. Such modern claims are all hoaxes and easily debunked or accounted for by non-miraculous pschosomatic type healings.

  No one has ever verified that speaking in tongues is anything but an effect of a sort of religious hysteria. That goes for tongue-speaking at pentecost, too.

  The really scary thing is that JW's are governed by men who believe the feeling they experience really is some special annointing. If there really is a God, would he allow the only evidence of his special choice to be something so abstract and similar to psychosis?
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  Quester

  Copernicus wrote:
  "So what was it? Has anyone else had this experience?"

  I lurk here once in a while, but this is my first
  time posting.

  Yes, I had a similar experience when I was a jw.
  I believe it is a genuine legitimate God experience.

  I don't have a totally negative view of my jw religion
  experience.
  I learned things there.
  I experienced God's presence there.
  I am of the opinion that some people can be happy in
  that religion. I was for a time.

  But I could only go so far spiritually and when I
  could no longer progress I started to feel very unhappy
  and stifled in that environment. In other words,
  I outgrew the jw religion.

  To me, God's presence is not just a feeling or some emotional
  experience. It can *invoke* feelings, emotions.

  It is hard to put into words.
  Yes some people describe God's presence as love, peace--yet it
  is not the normal love, peace feelings.
  Words are really inadequate to describe it.

  Remember that scripture that talks about the *peace* of God
  that *transcends* all understanding? (Phil 4:7)

  And I'm also thinking of Eph 3: 16-19 where it describes a *love*
  that *transcends* understanding.

  It's an experience that transcends our normal human experience/reality.
  It is, without a doubt, a connection with something greater
  than self.

  I think spiritual practices such as meditation, prayer can
  help open us up to experiencing God. Things like yoga,
  certain kinds of music, immersing myself in nature,
  work for me also.

  Copernicus wrote:
  "It’s the only thing that leaves me with even a shred of belief in
  God’s existence, despite the massive disillusionment I suffered
  as a result of my association with the WT."

  I think that is the case with me too.
  I would have probably become an agnostic or atheist
  if it wasn't for the times when I experience God's presence.

  Anyway, I think what you experienced could very well
  be God's presence and not just some "endorphin mental
  trigger" Quester.
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  OrangeBlossom

  Thank you Copernicus and Amazing as you have touched on feelings I have had.

  While a good JW, I felt a closeness to God. And on some occasions, when I was regular in field service and meeting attendance, I felt like I would survive Armageddon if it came that day. But, most of the time I felt like I would die at Armageddon because I was not measuring up. So I think the euphoric feeling is self-induced by our sub-conscience. The society tells us that we can only receive Jehovah's blessing and survive if we are doing A,B,C,D, etc. When we fail to do any of those things, we condemn ourselves to destruction. When we do everything they tell us, then we feel good about ourselves and that maybe, just maybe, Jehovah will spare us.

  I lived most of my life filled with guilt, not for having some secret sin, but because I was not living up to the standards of the WTS. I use to look around at others in the hall and wonder how they could do it but not me. Anyway, once I read "Crisis of Conscience", the guilt left. But, I have to be honest, a void entered my life as well.

  I feel like I have been deceived and my whole belief system turned upside-down. But your explanation, Amazing, makes perfect sense. Growing up in the borg, we are constantly conditioned to believe that we can ONLY be happy if we conform.

  BTW, I have just ordered "Crisis of Conscience" (newest edition) and "In Search of Christian Freedom" to re-read again. My mission this time is to subtly bring out points to family members without them knowing where my source is. I don't know how much longer I can keep pretending. I'm going to pick up "ISofCF" today, "CofC" had to be special ordered from publisher.

  This message board has been a god-send.
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  Had Enough

  To Amazing and all:

  I love this board and I am so grateful to all who post their experiences and findings about the org. So many times posts like this one will pull out thoughts buried deep inside that I haven't thought about for a long time and helps me to sort them out and get a better perspective on these pieces of the jigsaw puzzle in my mind.

  Orange Blossom:

  Everything you just wrote is exactly how I have felt and some of what I have already expressed in other threads here..like:
  

  The society tells us that we can only receive Jehovah's blessing and survive if we are doing A,B,C,D, etc. When we fail to do any of those things, we condemn ourselves to destruction. When we do everything they tell us, then we feel good about ourselves and that maybe, just maybe, Jehovah will spare us.

  I lived most of my life filled with guilt, not for having some secret sin, but because I was not living up to the standards of the WTS. I use to look around at others in the hall and wonder how they could do it but not me. Anyway, once I read "Crisis of Conscience", the guilt left. But, I have to be honest, a void entered my life as well.

  I feel like I have been deceived and my whole belief system turned upside-down. But your explanation, Amazing, makes perfect sense. Growing up in the borg, we are constantly conditioned to believe that we can ONLY be happy if we conform.

  Reading others feelings, experiences, thoughts, that I have gone through or am going through, continually gives me the boost I need in realizing I am not alone.

  Thank you all!!

  HE