"Where God Enters" 14th century Mystic,, Meister Eckhart

by frankiespeakin 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    JT:

    There is no religion, belief system or science that can give us what we already truly are; they will only create more boxes and more questions. We need to see and discover undeniably for ourselves, within ourselves, within the intimacy of the consciousness which reads this right now.

    IMHO Religion is but a stepping stone, hence for that reason it is viable (though it can later become a hinderance). As for Christian Mystics being dualist, maybe there's more than a grain of truth in that, but I found your words agreeable, with no contradiction.
    Mysticism seems to be esoteric, by nature. Theology is just a means to describe that reality in a literalist setting. IMO God is infinite, touching every point in time, simultaneously. Within this construct, your statement about time being contained within "God" is totally agreeable with my understanding. Keep up the good work

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Frankie:
    As ever, the devil is in the definition of the words.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    My favorite quote from Eckheirt:

    "God doesn't speak to me, but sometimes I can hear Him clear His throat."

    B.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    From this site:

    http://www.domcentral.org/prov/chapter/prov2003/rwoodsmystical.htm

    I got this: In his treatise on The Nobleman, Eckhart writes,

    "When a man, the soul, the spirit, sees God, he realises and knows himself as knowing. That is, he knows that he sees and knows God. Now some people have thought, and it seems credible, that the flower and kernel of bliss lies in that knowledge, when the spirit knows that it knows God; for if I had all joy and did not know it, what good would that be to me, and what joy would that be? But I definitely deny that that is so. Though it is true that the soul cannot be happy without that, yet felicity does not depend on it; for the first condition of felicity is that the soul sees God naked [that is, devoid of all images or conceptual representations]. From that she derives all her being and her life, and draws all that she is, from the ground of God, knowing nothing of knowledge, nor of love, nor of anything at all. She is utterly calm in God's being, knowing nothing but being there and God. But when she is aware and knows that she sees, knows and"

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    for the first condition of felicity is that the soul sees God naked [that is, devoid of all images or conceptual representations]. From that she derives all her being and her life, and draws all that she is, from the ground of God, knowing nothing of knowledge, nor of love, nor of anything at all. She is utterly calm in God's being, knowing nothing but being there and God. But when she is aware and knows that she sees,
    What Johannes is describing here is key. It seems he was experiencing "felicity" here himself and his utterances flow poetic. The single reason we are blind and numb to our natural oneness with God/the Source of all, is we experience existence through the dark lenses of mental imagery ("conceptual representations") comprised of thought, beliefs, concepts and ideas. The mind frantically weaves a sense of separate, individual identity from past memory of physical, mental, and emotional sensations and projects this onto the present, filling consciousness with endless commentary, judgments and a plethora of connected emotional responses. We package and come to identify all this movement of energy as who and what we are. We fear that if all intellectual and conceptual analyzation ends we will end. It's true, in that the imaginary mental construct of small, frightened, fragmented and separated entity "me" dissolves. The pure and pristine Truth of our Being remains. No more boxes. No more walls. Embracing all in infinite wonder it is discovered "I and the Father are One". We thought this was a relative truth appropriate for only one man. It is, instead, a universal-truth in which nothing is excluded. j

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    JT,

    I enjoy this :

    We fear that if all intellectual and conceptual analyzation ends we will end. It's true, in that the imaginary mental construct of small, frightened, fragmented and separated entity "me" dissolves. The pure and pristine Truth of our Being remains. No more boxes. No more walls. Embracing all in infinite wonder it is discovered "I and the Father are One". We thought this was a relative truth appropriate for only one man. It is, instead, a universal-truth in which nothing is excluded. j

    I don't think a man could do this and veiw life, in lifes expereinces in the flesh the same ever he has to be completely transendant, but how could a person so united with God ever be afraid. I don't think any man who has doubt about God has had this experience.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    Keep up the good work

    alt LT, It seems your and my sense of things is similar. Perhaps we have a more intimate sense of "God" than some. Personally I have forsaken all beliefs, preconceived ideas and concepts of what God is. I do know that God is not a thing or entity, but rather the true and pure essence of our Being. Too close, too alive to be grasp by thought or definitions. If consciousness is lost in memories of the past or fears of the future, or in the minds commentary of the present -- there is no sense of It. Only in this moment does it shine through the opening of silent awareness. Here, in bird song; here, in the joy of petting the purring cat; here in the warm sudsy water as I wash a dish; here in the sense of beating heart and flowing breath; here, in your eyes when awareness gazes upon them. The American Indians were right, everything is sacred. To make one belief system or one person more holy or divine, is to reduce God everywhere else in the universe. j

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    JT:

    It seems your and my sense of things is similar.

    Very similar, indeed, from what I read of you.
    I love to discuss philosophies, theology, and doctrine, but my [hourly / daily] practice seems far more in accord with your own.
    Breathe the moment...

    Perhaps we have a more intimate sense of "God" than some.

    I wouldn't dare presume. I am what I am.
    I "sense" a "meekness" (*see below) and connectedness, in you, which I find very agreeable.

    Personally I have forsaken all beliefs, preconceived ideas and concepts of what God is.

    Is that truly possible?
    Maybe we can acknowledge and push away, as we submerge in an open consciousness, but to what extent do the residual memories and interplay of concepts continue to rage around us?

    I do know that God is not a thing or entity, but rather the true and pure essence of our Being.

    Is that a conclusion, or your current waystop?
    Death and rebirth of the consciousness takes may cycles...
    (Incidentally, I don't mean that to sound condescending, as I believe that you may be well ahead of me on the "road", in some areas)

    Only in this moment does it shine through the opening of silent awareness...

    Beautifully put, my frater.

    The American Indians were right, everything is sacred.

    For sure. There's a lot to learn from the "old ways" of many civilizations. The similarities are astounding (compare the above with the druidic or Celtic ways, for instance).

    To make one belief system or one person more holy or divine, is to reduce God everywhere else in the universe.

    In the main I would agree with your comment, however I still retain some Christian leanings *regarding "meekness":
    IMHO this is an impoverished word in the modern English idiom.
    What I'm trying to convey is a sense of "power under restraint and control". Not that it's trying to be constrained, but rather directed and guided. Flowing.
    It may outwardly manifest itself as "humility", "mildness", etc., but that would be totally missing what is occuring under the surface. (an awkward way of describing a definition, but it's another one of those things that is "better felt than telled" - I suspect you know of what I speak) There's a new workplace category of what they call "soft skills", that is being touted, these days. In this context, I believe the phrase "soft is strong" would not be untoward. Respectfully yours.
    LLL

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    Personally I have forsaken all beliefs, preconceived ideas and concepts of what God is.
    Is that truly possible?
    Maybe we can acknowledge and push away, as we submerge in an open consciousness, but to what extent do the residual memories and interplay of concepts continue to rage around us?

    When it is clearly seen and experienced that when attention and credibility is given to ideas/beliefs/concepts about God/Life, that there is a simultaneous contracting down to a mental level that blinds us to Oneness with Life (what some may call the living presence of God), then these conceptualizations often fall away by themselves. They may show up periodically and you may actually sense something along the lines of "oh, there is that old belief I once had about God"....but that's about it. There is no power in them to place God/Reality in a box anymore. They are just empty thoughts. No problem.

    I do know that God is not a thing or entity, but rather the true and pure essence of our Being.
    Is that a conclusion, or your current waystop?

    This is not "condescending" at all Ross; in fact it is an excellent question because it goes to the heart of it. It is, and it is not -- a "conclusion". It is a conclusion in that seeking and intellectual questions end. You know that you know. You deeply sense the Truth within this living-moment and the unhindered connection, or better said oneness. There is nothing closer, more alive, more real, more actual, or more true and significant that our Being. Here, now, is where it's at, and you know it deeper than you have ever known anything before. However, it is not a "conclusion" or end because it is just the beginning of delving into the mystery of the Infinity of Being. Every moment is new and fresh.

    I still retain some Christian leanings

    I too held on to Christianity/Christian Mysticism for a long time. I had a big investment there and I cherished it and identified with it. I can only tell you this...any thing we cherish and identify with that can be placed in memory or intellectualized are chains that will hold us back from delving deeper into Truth. Truth, is very jealous, it wants us naked and empty. This makes itself known to us. If we are holding on there is a blockage, a tension, and contraction. Sometimes this can become extremely painful, even when our grasping is very subtle. We can honor Christianity or religion as a stepping stone, but if we keep standing on it, we will likely go no further and starve there. It's not nearly as important what Jesus experienced or said 2000 years ago, as what we come to live and experience now. It seems that a big part of the problem is we keep thinking that we need to do something or know something to make this all work. When, it is our "knowing" and "doing" that often hinders us. There is a wondrous Intelligence from which all universes and life flow from. We need to trust That, and let go. j

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    STANZAS OF THE SOUL

    http://www.tearsofllorona.com/john.html

    This book, an "exposition of the stanzas describing the method followed by the soul in its journey upon the spiritual road to the attainment of the perfect union of love with God, to the extent that is possible in this life," comes down to us from the Spanish mystic, priest, and spiritual instructor known as St. John of the Cross (6/24/1542-12/14/1591), born Juan de Yepes at Fontiveros, near Ávila. After his death he was beatified by Clement X, canonized by Benedict XIII, and declared Doctor of the Church Universal by Pius XI.

    The
    The Dark Night of the Soul was intended to develop the spiritual themes in each of the stanzas appearing at the end of this document, but the work was never finished (the third was as far as he got). My comments appear in italics.Many can never have enough of listening to counsels and learning spiritual precepts, and of possessing and reading many books which treat of this matter, and they spend their time on all these things rather than on works of mortification and the perfecting of the inward poverty of spirit which should be theirs.

    "Mortification" meaning the hunting down and killing of egotistical desires for inward exaltation or spiritual advancement. All the great mystics agree that the sense of closeness to God hinges on the planing away of anything--most of all the "I" or "me"--that blocks the divine light. St. John later makes the point that God often withholds joy or a feeling of illumination precisely so that striving will cease and grace operate invisibly.

    This night, which, as we say, is contemplation, produces in spiritual persons two kinds of darkness or purgation, corresponding to the two parts of man's nature--namely, the sensual and the spiritual. And thus the one night or purgation will be sensual, wherein the soul is purged according to sense, which is subdued to the spirit; and the other is a night or purgation which is spiritual, wherein the soul is purged and stripped according to the spirit, and subdued and made ready for the union of love with God.

    Many contemplatives and fans of meditation will recognize the first kind of "night" by its barrenness, confusion, emptiness, and lack of joy or imagery. That, however, is the lesser night; those who work through it and make peace with it encounter a spiritual night far more terrible. The first weans one from dependence on pleasant experiences, inner or outer, the second from the very sense of self. The first is the desert, the second Gethsemane. Both are signs, not of sin, but of advancement.

    In this sense we may understand that which the Spouse said to the Bride in the Songs, namely: "Withdraw thine eyes from me, for they make me to soar aloft." for in such a way does God bring the soul into this state, and by so different a path does He lead it that, if it desires to work with its faculties, it hinders the work which god is doing in it rather than aids it; whereas aforetime it was quite the contrary.

    During the time, then, of the aridities of this night of sense (wherein God effects the change of which we have spoken above, drawing forth the soul from the life of sense into that of the spirit--that is, from meditation to contemplation--wherein it no longer has any power to work or to reason with its faculties concerning the things of God, as has been said), spiritual persons suffer great trials, by reason not so much of the aridities which they suffer, as of the fear which they have of being lost on the road, thinking that all spiritual blessing is over for them and that God has abandoned them since they find no help or pleasure in good things.

    It is well for those who find themselves in this condition to take comfort, to persevere in patience and to be in no wise afflicted...The way in which they are to conduct themselves in this night of sense is to devote themselves not at all to reasoning and meditation, since this is not the time for it, but to allow the soul to remain in peace and quietness, although it may seem to them that they are doing nothing and are wasting their time...For if such a soul should desire to make any effort of its own with its interior faculties, this means that it will hinder and lose the blessings which, by means of that peace and ease of the soul, God is instilling into it and impressing upon it. It is just as if some painter were painting or dyeing a face; if the sitter were to move because he desired to do something, he would prevent the painter from accomplishing anything and would disturb him in what he is doing.

    Yet sometimes, nevertheless, there soon begins to make itself felt a certain yearning toward God; and the more this increases, the more is the soul affectioned and enkindled in love toward God, without knowing or understanding how and whence this love and affection come to it, but from time to time seeing this flame and this enkindling grow so greatly within it that it desires God with yearning of love...And because at times the enkindling of love in the spirit grows greater, the yearnings for God become so great in the soul that the very bones seem to be dried up by this thirst, and the natural powers to be fading away, and their warmth and strength to be perishing through the intensity of the thirst of love, for the soul feels that this thirst of love is a living thirst.

    It continually amazes me that people who believe they've been in love can't understand this transcendent kind of love. They aren't very different at all.

    This night and purgation of desire, a happy one for the soul, works in it so many blessings and benefits (although to the soul, as we have said, it seems rather that blessings are being taken away from it) that, even as Abraham made a great feast when he weaned his son Isaac, even so is there joy in Heaven because God is now taking this soul from its swaddling clothes, setting it down from His arms, making it to walk upon its feet, and likewise taking from it the milk of the breast and the soft and sweet food proper to children, and making it to eat bread with crust, and to begin to enjoy the food of robust persons...It practices the charity of God, since it is not now moved by the pleasure of attraction and sweetness which it finds in its work, but only by God.

    In my view, that paragraph sets forth one of the greatest of all contemplative insights. The spiritual nourishment beyond nourishment, beyond beatific visions or preoccupation with illumination or nearness to God, signifies supreme self-surrender and total nakedness to what Blake called "the beams of love."

    And my will went forth from itself, becoming Divine; for, being united with Divine love, it no longer loves with its natural strength after a lowly manner, but with the strength and purity from the Holy Spirit; and thus the will, which is now near to God, acts not after a human manner, and similarly the memory has become transformed into eternal apprehensions of glory.

    Some similarities: the Tao contemplating itself; the alchemical insight that Mercurius, spirit of the Philosopher's Stone, comprises also the fire, the retort, and even the alchemist; the Hindu belief that the divine spark animating the yogi represents God addressing Himself/Herself; a similar theme in Gnosticism and Qabbala; Jung's discovery of the ego-Self dialogue; the Islamic tale of God asking the complaining believer whose prayer seemed unanswered, "Who do you think was doing the praying?"

    ...The more directly we look at the sun, the greater is the darkness which it causes in our visual faculty, overcoming and overwhelming it through its own weakness. In the same way, when this Divine light of contemplation assails the soul which is not yet wholly enlightened, it causes spiritual darkness in it; for not only does it overcome it, but likewise it overwhelms it and darkens the act of its natural intelligence.

    And when the soul suffers the direct assault of this Divine light, its pain, which results from its impurity, is immense; because, when this pure light assails the soul, in order to expel its impurity, the soul feels itself to be so impure and miserable that it believes God to be against it, and thinks that it has set itself up against God.

    Copyright 1997 by Craig Chalquist

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