Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom 67 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    Terry said: "Could you clarify what you mean about what exactly Peter gave Paul which Paul passed along?
    To wit:
    Some argue that the inclusion of the Gentiles explains it, but it does not. Because history attests that it began with the Jews, and even in the bible we see Paul stating that he passed on what he was given - which he got from Peter in Jerusalem."



    I can certainly do that, I'll provide a few quotes from the book I'm currently reading. I just read a rather large chapter in which was the subject of the plausibility of hellenization of culture explaining the view of Christ. The full title of the book is, "Lord Jesus Christ | Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity" by Larry W. Hurtado. I'm not done with it yet but I'm enjoying it. 


    Anyway, on beginning on page 230 it states:

    "To Repeat an earlier emphasis: the interpretation of Jesus' death attested in Paul's letters, by all accounts, derive from his "predecessors," including Judean circles such as the Jerusalem church. Moreover, as also previously noted, Paul's acquaintance with Jewish Christian beliefs began in the very first few years (ca 30-35 C.E). The only meaningful period of Christian development "before" Paul is at most the very first few months or perhaps years. But Paul's introduction to Jewish Christian beliefs must even be dated prior to his conversion, for his opposition could have been directed only against a prior Jewish Christian phenomenon.Furthermore, Paul claims that the traditions such as he repeats in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 represent not only his own prior missionary message but also the proclamation of Judean leaders (15:11). Scholars may dispute the validity of Paul's claim, of course. But we must also note that those to whom he attributed these traditions (e.g., Peter/Cephas and James) were still very much active and able to speak for themselves. He was not as much at liberty to make specious attributions and claims about the origins of Christian traditions as we modern scholars!"


    It should be noted that the above quote is taken from a page where he's addressing the treatment of the Q material toward Christs death. However as the quote itself states he elsewhere made this same assertion in addressing the hellenization issue, which I'm still trying to find in the book.... (It's rather large)


    Found it. Okay so he addresses the Hellenists starting on page 206 and there is a great deal of information. Such as the first instance of the above quoted information can be found somewhere here. So what I'm going to do is type out the last paragraph leading up to the summary of the chapter and then some of the summary itself. But remember all the things he asserts up to this point has his references in the footnotes and very detailed reasons for why the assertion is made. What I'm going to put here is a summary, because otherwise I'd be typing all day long. 


    "Whatever one thinks of the idea that the Hellenist believers of Jerusalem had developed a distinctly radical view of Torah and temple, however, for my purposes here the key question is whether they dissented from the sorts of christological categories and devotional practice that came to expression initially among Judean circles of the early Christian movement. The answer: there is no evidence that the Hellenists as a group had a distinctive Christology, or that they collectively rejected the sort of reverential practices studied in this chapter. But, even if one prefers to think of the Hellenists as some sort of proto-Pauline group that was critical of "the ritual law" and the Jerusalem temple, this does not in itself provide any basis for thinking they also developed a significantly different view of Jesus or a distinctive pattern of devotional practice. Within the limits of our evidence (secondhand reports of Acts and traditions in Paul's letters), it appears that the "Hebrews" and the "Hellenists" in Jerusalem made similar christological statements and engaged in similar devotional practices."


    Following this statement is the summary, which is quite lengthy, but on page 215 he says this:


    "The most important points to make here are these, by way of summary: The high place of Jesus in the beliefs and religious practice of Judean Christianity that comes across in this evidence confirms how astonishingly early and quickly an impressive devotion to Jesus appeared. This in turn helps to explain why and how it all seems to have been so conventionalized and uncontroversial already by the time of the Pauline mission to the Gentiles in the 50's. As Bengt Holmberg notes, when Paul visited Jerusalem three years after his conversion (or perhaps about five years after Jesus' execution), "he there encountered a religious group which had reached a fairly high degree of development in doctrinal tradition, teaching, cultic practice, common life and internal organization."

    He then cites his reference in the footnotes. 
    He goes on to further assert in a few lines that Jesus place in Christian worship was very early, and as we can see from their practices developed prior to the Gentile mission of Paul.

       

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    but, Jesus was more closely aligned with DEITY where the others both OT and NT were kept firmly on the ground in their roles as "divinity" as can be seen in their strictly human foibles being included in the text.

    Nope. Jesus began as a man and as Christianity developed, both low and high Christologies came into existence, evolved and competed for followers and are still debated today. There were dozens of competing texts, ideas and stories about Jesus with different explanations for his divinity. Even the OT admits there are other gods out there.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    but there is only one religion where a man claimed to be God and 2000 years later, 1 out of every 5 people [or more] on the whole planet believe it.

    Jesus never claimed to be God. He was later elevated to that position.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    Matthew 16:13-17

    According to the text Jesus called Himself, "Son of Man" in verse 13. Without verbal prompting Peter elevated the Son of Man to Son of God by verse 16. 

    also according to the text the reaction of the religious jews to the title, "Son of God" in their interaction with Jesus suggests they had equality with deity on their minds more than divinity...as you say, the idea of human "divinity" wasn't unfamiliar. (John 10:33-36)

    if religious jews ALWAYS sought to stone every prophet, priest and king for claiming a human divinity it simply makes no sense that their very words were kept generation after generation.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    According to the text Jesus called Himself, "Son of Man" in verse 13. Without verbal prompting Peter elevated the Son of Man to Son of God by verse 16.

    Let's look...

    13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

    14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

    15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

    17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

    Notice that Jesus NEVER says he is the Son of Man, nor does Peter say that the Son of Man is the Son of God. This is a classic example of Christians stringing things together and claiming the Bible says something it doesn't. Jesus asks about the Son of Man and then about himself. Two diferent questions, two different answers with Jesus never claiming to be either nor claiming to be God.


  • cofty
    cofty
    even in the bible we see Paul stating that he passed on what he was given - which he got from Peter in Jerusalem - JD

    Actually Paul was at great pains to stress that he got his gospel from no man. He claimed direct revelation from Jesus and it was on this basis that he could claim to be an Apostle on equal terms with the others.

    He went up to Jerusalem 2 or 3 years later but he claimed he learned nothing new from them.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    @cofty

    scholars can't account for the origination of the phrase Son of Man. It's unique to Christ himself. They call it an ideolect, and he only used it when referencing himself. So when Christ asked, who are they saying the son of man is? It was the same as him saying, who are they saying I am?


    son of man is not a phrase found anywhere else at that time, and when he said it it was not a reference to the Old Testament references to someone like A son of man, which is a different phrase.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    scholars can't account for the origination of the phrase Son of Man. It's unique to Christ himself.

    Huh? The phrase appears in Ezra, Psalms, Daniel, Ezekiel and many other places, including extra-Biblical sources, usually carrying no indication of divinity. It's not even remotely right to say it's unique to Jesus.

    They call it an ideolect, and he only used it when referencing himself. So when Christ asked, who are they saying the son of man is? It was the same as him saying, who are they saying I am?

    Jesus was written to have often used the phrase "son of man" in reference to someone other than himself. It's an interesting conflict in the gospels.

    son of man is not a phrase found anywhere else at that time, and when he said it it was not a reference to the Old Testament references to someone like A son of man, which is a different phrase.

    That is patently untrue.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    Sorry in. Y first post I meant to address you not cofty..  Oi I'm out of it today.


    well all I can tell you is I've read this in several works of scholars, so unless you have a doctorate or masters in classical language and such things I'm going to trust the more educated sources telling me this phrase, the one specifically used by Christ, was unique to him and unaccounted for.


    like I said, the referenced where this is discussed they are addressing the original language ohrase not the transliteration, which may match the translation of a similar phrase elsewhere, however this one in particular is unique to Christ.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    well all I can tell you is I've read this in several works of scholars, so unless you have a doctorate or masters in classical language and such things I'm going to trust the more educated sources telling me this phrase, the one specifically used by Christ, was unique to him and unaccounted for.

    I've opened the Bible and seen it. Not my fault if you are too lazy to do that.

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