Watchtower Right?

by patio34 37 Replies latest social current

  • patio34
    patio34

    I like that idea--but don't concur with it--but it IS applicable to some degree. I've never read Heinlen, but have a book on the shelf for some day.

    Here's one that's a bit derogatory to religious people, but I think it has some application to overly religious people (especially JWs):

    "The beauty of religious mania is that is has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance . . . or change. Once such incantatory phrases as 'we see now thru a glass darkly' and 'mysterious are the ways He chooses His wonders to perform' are mastered, logic can be happily tossed out the window. Religious mania is one of the few infallible ways of responding to the world's vagaries, because it totally eliminates pure accident. To the true religious maniac, it's all on purpose." (From The Stand by Stephen King)

    Pat

  • imallgrowedup
    imallgrowedup

    Sir, Pat and Phantom,

    Again, IMHO, our dissenting opinions are illustrative of our different world views. However, I will say that I contributed to the confusion here because I did not make it clear what exactly I was referring to when I attributed free-will to conservativism, and pre-destination to liberalism. This is what I meant:

    I say that liberals believe in pre-destination because most (not all) liberals think that people are born into lifestyles they will never be able to get out of and therefore, are pre-destined to the life they will have due to the family they are born into. As such, it is the responsibility of society to take care of them. I say conservatives believe in free will because we tend to believe that it doesn't matter what social situation a person is born into, each person can make choices (free will) to make their lives to be anything they want them to be and that each person should be responsible for their own lives. Society should take care of those who can not make choices - such as, but not limited to, the physically or mentally handicapped.

    As far as liberal and conservative definitions not being applicable to this, I believe that they are. The title of this thread is "Watchtower Right". The Watchtower is a religion (supposed to be anyway!), and the "Right" refers to politics. The very title of this thread puts the two in the same category. Personally, I believe politics and religion (or lack thereof) are inextricably linked, which is why I made the original post in this thread. Of course, this is my personal opinion. If you guys don't agree, then please know that I certainly don't mean to post off-topic. It just fits with my world view.

    growedup

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    And I beleive that you're wrong about those definitions. I am a social liberal and I believe in the concept of personal responsibility. Rush Limbaugh may think that I don't, but I do. I suggest that some liberals may fit your concept, but you have no evidence to support that all or most do...

  • talesin
    talesin

    Patio,

    Dissent is Patriotic

    What an excellent quote!!! Can I use it?

    right on

    talesin

  • PopeOfEruke
    PopeOfEruke

    When I was a young person, I was witnessing with a brother and we came across a family of Mormons. The discussion turned to war and how the Mormons are not conscientious objectors as opposed to the JW's who are.

    The brother I was with asked what would happen if this Mormon guy had a Mormon friend from another country, and then war broke out and this Mormon friend was now on the opposing side.

    The brother asked "How would you feel about having to kill him?"

    And the Mormon said "I'd feel like I'd be helping him get to heaven quicker".

    I always thought that was a strange answer...

    Pope

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Imallgrowedup--it didn't occur to me that the title could be interpreted that way! I meant "was the Watchtower correct" and was just trying to be brief, lol. You said:

    The title of this thread is "Watchtower Right". The Watchtower is a religion (supposed to be anyway!), and the "Right" refers to politics. The very title of this thread puts the two in the same category.

    Sorry that I wasn't more clear.

    Hi PhantomStranger, I think we're on the same page pretty much.

    Hi Talesin, That isn't my quote, so feel free to use it--even if it were mine, lol. I "marched" in a July 4th parade last year with a group that was protesting the Patriot Act and that was one of theirs. And when you think about it, it is decidedly UNpatriotic to not dissent when you feel something wrong is being done.

    Hi Pope, I think the answer was odd that the Mormon said--but I also disagree with the JW question too.

    Pat

  • PopeOfEruke
    PopeOfEruke

    Patio34

    what makes me laugh now is this - as a JW, we used to call the Mormons "weirdos", belonging as they did to such a whacked-out "weird" religion.

    Pots and kettles notwithstanding....

    Pope

  • patio34
    patio34

    That's a good one Pope! I used to think ALL religions were strange, but JWs, especially Mormons and fundamentalists. But what a different perspective now--JWs are up there at the top of weird!

    Pat

  • imallgrowedup
    imallgrowedup

    Pat -

    No worries!

    Phantom -

    I am a social liberal and I believe in the concept of personal responsibility. Rush Limbaugh may think that I don't, but I do. I suggest that some liberals may fit your concept, but you have no evidence to support that all or most do...

    I am confused by this statement. Are you saying that I have no evidence to support that all or most liberals believe in personal responsibility?

    growedup

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    I'm saying that I haven't seen any evidence that supports your statement, and that my personal experience, anecdotal as it may be, seems to contradict it, that's all.

    Frankly, it reminds me of the sort of statement I hear on conservative talk radio... so I'd love to find out if there are any sorts of treatises, studies, papers, or such that provide support for your assertion. I really think that it's oversimplified, to be honest.

    I think that your description of conservatives probably correctly describes a minority of conservatives... many of them libertarian by bent if not by party affiliation. I number many friends among such, and I assume this describes your personal views, many of which it sounds like I respect and een sometimes agree with (as long as it doesn't involve your judgements of "liberals":) But there are many conservatives in this country who seem to have no taste for libertarianism, and want to dictate behavior whenever it could be at odds with their sense of propriety and morality. I'm curious how your description accounts for them - I don't see how it does, and that's one reason I think it's oversimplified.

    Isn't it possible that there are a significant percentage of conservatives who hang on to the past because they are simply afraid of change? Isn't it possible that there are people who embrace moral absolutism because the don't want the personal responsibility that comes with the adoption of moral relativism? (Or because they have trust issues that they use as a reason to not trust other people to be responsible?)

    As far as liberals go, there was a great article in the WSJ - I think yesterday or Monday - talking about how the Democratic party is having to bind together its fractured groups to attempt to be cohesive. I think that both conservatives and liberals in this counrty are far more diverse than you represent - and I think that liberals are even more fractally diverse in actual philosophy than conservatives. But I think oversimplification is easier to sell on talk radio.

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