avoiding apostates letter

by galaxy7 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Dansk

then the only one left is Satan. You are either for God or against God.

Not true! There is not a shred of evidence that Satan exists any more than God exists. If I don't believe in God it doesn't mean I am against him. If there is a God and he is as loving as he supposedly is then I should be judged on my deeds. I don't need to believe in God to be a good person. Goodness, look at history! Many professing to believe in God and GENUINELY believed in him went out and performed some of the most heinous acts imaginable, eg. crusades, English civil war, Spanish inquisition, etc. Contrast that with the many atheists who have done nothing but loving humanitarian works all their lives. Which of the two is/was doing God's work?
There are enough posts in the archives explaining the root of Satan and where monotheism came from. One cannot prove God exists any more than one can prove that he doesn't.
Ian
galaxy7

this letter was given to a sister by an elder to warn me from associating with so called apostates
The bottom of the letter it says
http://www.jw-media.org
authorized site of the office of puplic information of Jehovahs witnesses
LittleToe

Galaxy7:
It's truly sad, isn't it!
Dansk:
There is not a shred of evidence that Satan exists any more than God exists.
False. It may not be evidence that you personally accept, however that doesn't negate it.
If I don't believe in God it doesn't mean I am against him.
True.
If there is a God and he is as loving as he supposedly is then I should be judged on my deeds.
False premise. You are assuming that God holds the same standards as you. I don't hold the same standards as you, far less people from various other cultural backgrounds and continents. Hence, how can we judge "God's" judgement process as being any better or worse than our own. At worst, it's surely relative? To use the term "loving" detracts from the subject, as that too, is subjective.
I know nothing of your deeds, but I like you, Ian.
I don't need to believe in God to be a good person.
True.
Goodness, look at history! Many professing to believe in God and GENUINELY believed in him went out and performed some of the most heinous acts imaginable, eg. crusades, English civil war, Spanish inquisition, etc. Contrast that with the many atheists who have done nothing but loving humanitarian works all their lives. Which of the two is/was doing God's work?
Unfair comment. You have used selective evidence to produce a polarized generalisation.
There have been good "believers" and bad "atheists", too, hence your statement is using hand-picked data to assert your position.
There are enough posts in the archives explaining the root of Satan and where monotheism came from.
Some very interesting discussions, indeed. However, for all their merit they remain our best guess on the origins of such beliefs. The evidence is fragmented, and I can't help but admire those that have trawled through such data to arrive at any working hypothesis.
One cannot prove God exists any more than one can prove that he doesn't.
True. For that you'd have to have commonality in what data you choose to accept or refute.
There is disagreement on this between the two sides of the debate, making any such data un-provable.
blondie

This looks like a cut and paste from this article. Galaxy 7, are there any comments that are the personal statements of this JW?
w86 3/15 10-12 'Do Not Be Quickly Shaken From Your Reason'

"We request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us."?2 THESSALONIANS 2:1, 2.
PLEASANT memories invariably come to mind when we as Christians reflect on the time when we first learned the truth from God?s Word. It was beautiful, reasonable, satisfying. How our hearts swelled with appreciation when we learned about Jehovah and his lofty qualities, including his great love and his mercy! We rejoiced when we came into association with fellow believers who showed genuine Christian love and lived by Bible principles.
2
How thankful we were to learn that Jehovah will soon remove pain, sorrow, and even death. (Revelation 21:3, 4) Imagine, living forever on a paradise earth, with perfect health and complete happiness! It was almost too good to be true. But it was true. It was backed by God?s Word. It was thrilling! Undoubtedly, we felt just like Jesus? disciples when he appeared to them after his resurrection. They said to one another: "Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?" (Luke 24:32) Yes, on learning the truth and dedicating our lives to Jehovah, we found ourselves in a spiritual paradise. What a blessing!
3
But being in Jehovah?s spiritual paradise is not something we can take for granted. We came into this paradise voluntarily; we can walk right out (or be put out) if we go into unbelief or willfully violate Jehovah?s righteous laws. Of course, this will not happen if we keep strong the ?love we had at first,? if we continue to appreciate all of Jehovah?s provisions to keep us spiritually strong. (Revelation 2:4) But the Devil and other opposers of true worship are skilled in deception. We should never forget that they stand ever ready to break our integrity if they can. Their propaganda is designed to weaken our faith, to cool our love for God, to sow doubts in our minds?yes, to make the spiritual paradise appear to be no paradise at all.
4
To borrow from a proverbial saying, we could come to the point where we would find it difficult, perhaps even impossible, to see the forest of the spiritual paradise because of looking so closely at the imperfect human trees now in it. The thrill we had in learning the truth of God?s Word, the grand hope we came to have, the love we developed for God and our spiritual brothers, and the zeal we had for Jehovah?s service can fade. If drastic steps are not taken to reverse any such spiritual deterioration, soon God?s loving requirements seem to be oppressive. The wholesome spiritual food from "the faithful and discreet slave" may seem to be something contemptible, and the brotherhood of loving servants of Jehovah may appear to be a household of enemies. Then the only satisfaction, of a perverted kind, may come in beginning to beat one?s fellow slaves with slander and half-truths.?Matthew 24:45-51.
5
Yes, we could not only lose the blessings of the spiritual paradise now but, more seriously, also lose the hope of living eternally in the earthly Paradise. And we could lose out for the same reason that Adam and Eve lost the Paradise of Eden. They had everything they needed to be perfectly happy and could have lived forever. But independence?actually a different teaching?was more important to them than were obedience to Jehovah and the blessings of Eden. Eve was deceived. While Adam was not deceived, he let the force of circumstances, including the strong influence of his wife, cause him to sin also. Therefore, they were put out of Paradise, to live a miserable life until their death. They lost the prospect of everlasting life for themselves and brought an inheritance of sin and death upon their offspring. (Genesis 3:1-7, 14-19, 24; 1 Timothy 2:14; Romans 5:12) What a terrible price to pay for their so-called independence!
6
The apostle Paul expressed this concern: "I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3) Paul found it necessary to write regarding some erroneous teachings that were circulating in his day. In his second letter to the congregation at Thessalonica, he wrote: "We request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one seduce you in any manner."?2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
7
Now, what will you do if you are confronted with apostate teaching?subtle reasonings?claiming that what you believe as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses is not the truth? For example, what will you do if you receive a letter or some literature, open it, and see right away that it is from an apostate? Will curiosity cause you to read it, just to see what he has to say? You may even reason: ?It won?t affect me; I?m too strong in the truth. And, besides, if we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. The truth will stand the test.? In thinking this way, some have fed their minds upon apostate reasoning and have fallen prey to serious questioning and doubt. (Compare James 1:5-8.) So remember the warning at 1 Corinthians 10:12: "Let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall."

8
With loving help from caring brothers, some having doubts sown by apostates have recovered after a period of spiritual turmoil and trauma. But this pain could have been avoided. At Proverbs 11:9 we are told: "By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued." Jude told fellow Christians to "continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire." (Jude 22, 23) Paul advised the overseer Timothy to instruct "with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one."?2 Timothy 2:25, 26.
Nosferatu

this letter was given to a sister by an elder to warn me from associating with so called apostates

That's very interesting Blondie & Galaxy. What's really stupid is the elder didn't quote which Watchtower it was from. Let me ask, who's decieving who? Was Galaxy supposed to think that this letter was a personal message from a concerned elder?
Elsewhere

Interesting... are they now trying to preemptively warn new studies against apostate information, or is this an isolated incident?
Dansk

LT,
I'll select just one of your comments otherwise this thread will end up like so many other Christian/Does God exit?/Doesn't he exist?/Born Again/ Born Again bashing, etc.
Unfair comment. You have used selective evidence to produce a polarized generalisation.
There have been good "believers" and bad "atheists", too, hence your statement is using hand-picked data to assert your position.
It is not an unfair comment. You have taken it differently to the way it was intended, i.e. of course there have been bad atheists and good believers. Not wanting to write an entire essay I wrote what I did to give an example of how one can be performing good or godlike works without actually believing in God.
You said you had a spiritual experience of some kind - but we only have your word for that. Does that make you a liar? Not at all - but you and I know that psychiatrists and psychologists would likely place a different interpretation on what you "experienced".
"Oh, but I DEFINITELY experienced it!", you might say. But some people DEFINITELY believe themselves to be the reincarnation of some Pharoah or other deceased person, such as Napoleon, etc. They are just as adamant as you are about who/what they are or about what they have experienced.
Until each of us experiences a similar experience to you we are unlikely to believe in God as passionately as you do. And why should we?
Christianity is basically a western religion and, let's face it, generally goes well with the western psyche. But Taoists and Buddhists (and other religions/philosophies) have taught and inculcated good morals into believers centuries before Jesus supposedly walked the earth and still do today. One doesn't have to believe in God or Jesus to be a Taoist or Buddhist, so are these doomed to hell-fire because of their beliefs? You have faith in what you "experienced" and in what you believe - but you cannot back it up with tangible facts. There is so much research published now against what is printed in the Bible, including that from Jewish archaeologists, that I cannot take the book seriously. The fact that you do take it seriously is your choice, of course.
And are we to blame Satan for ethnic cleansing or God for allowing it? Did Satan blind us into becoming JWs or do we blame God for allowing him to dupe us? I believe we make our own choices and we make our own spirituality. Yes, I believe in karma - but I cannot prove to you that karma is right anymore than you can disprove it. I feel good about being a Buddhist now, just as you feel good about being a Christian. At the end of the day that's what all this seems to be about - how good we personally feel about the path we tread.
I like you, too!
Ian
galaxy7

Hey Blondie,
I was given this during the bible study that was the first page I posted .I guess by the questions that I have been raising It is obvious I am learning elsewhere.
The rest of the letter is w/94 7/1/pp12-13 at which table are you feeding
w/92 7/15 p13 Christ hated Lawlessness do you
w/99 7/15 pp17-18anchored by hope impelled by love
w/87 11/1 p 18-20 are you remaining clean in every respect
w/00 5/1 pp9-10 firmly uphold gods teaching
FirstInLine

Richie,
You have a serious leap in logic here.
If it has been proven that God does not back this organization (and it has) nor does God approve of the people who are responsible for the dissemination of their beliefs, then the only one left is Satan. You are either for God or against God.
I could just as easily say purple unicorns are responsible for the Watchtower. You have given no evidence that the Watchtower is Satan's organization. I'm not necessarily saying he isnt but I was only pointing out that you sound really certain and gave many details about his involvement.
It comes across as irrational. It would help our anti-watchtower cause if critics sounded more rational than the ones being criticized.
seattleniceguy

At Proverbs 11:9 we are told: "By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin, but by knowledge are the righteous rescued."

I ask you: which group limits the knowledge accessible to their members, JWs or XJWs? If by knowledge are the righteous rescued, then the entire intent of the article - to restrict JWs from paying the slightest attention to the facts that outsiders have to offer - makes the JWs land squarely on the apostate side, by their own definition.
Imagine two car salesmen. One tells you his product is of high quality and invites you to make a comparison with the competition in any way you see fit. The other also says his product is of high quality - indeed, the best possible car on the market - but tells you not to listen to anyone else. Any information showing that his product is inferior is the work of Satan. And previous owners who are dissatisfied are the worst people in the universe. No one can legitimately be dissatisfied with the product; such people are evil, henchmen of Satan, whom God will exterminate shortly.
Which person would you trust?
SNG

avoiding apostates letter

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