Rev. 19:1

by mpatrick 17 Replies latest jw friends

mpatrick

I was wondering how Revelation 19:1 is explained
"After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude IN HEAVEN ......
How do JW's explain this since they teach the great crowd is going to be on the earth.
DB

The Witnesses explain this scripture in their book Reasoning From The Scriptures. I do not have the book with me at the moment, so I have no page number to give you at this time.
bigboi

Hey Mpatrick:
This is from the Reasoning bk pg 168: "The "great crowd in heaven" reffered to at Rev. 19:1,6 is not the same as the "great crowd" of Rev. 7:9. The ones in heaven are not describd as being "out of all nations" or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression "great crowd" is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.- Mark 5:22; 6:34; 12:37.
Hope that helps.
ONE....
Bigboi
"it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia
AGuest

Hello, mpatrick, and may you have peace!
Actually, the 'FDS' has lied to you, in an attempte to 'mislead' you... as they attempt to mislead ALL of the 'chosen' ones.
Matthew 24:24
Here's the TRUTH:
The WTBTS teaches that only a small number, 144,000... will go to heaven. That is a lie. The 144,000, represent the 'little flock'... or HOLY ONES... Israel. This INCLUDES... all 12 tribes of Israel... INCLUDING the Jews... (Judah AND Benjamin)... and excluding Dan (which tribe gave up their share in the wilderness outside of Jericho/Canaan, and it was given to Joseph - Manasseh)
Revelation 7:4-8
John saw the 144,000... from 'the sons of ISRAEL' (and NOT just the Jews)... SEALED. What did this 'sealing' mean and why the 144,000? Because... God had made a PROMISE... to ABRAHAM... that would include HIS 'seed'. BUT... that 'seed'... BLEW it! They LEFT THE COVENANT entered with ALL of Israel at Sinai:
1. All of Israel initially left that covenant when they DEMANDED a king, 'like the nations' around them. By doing so, they REJECTED JAH as their king. However, as long as the king himself held to the law, my Father held Israel as still being UNDER that law.
2. After the death of Solomon, Israel broke into two factions: the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel (the Samaritans), and the 2-tribe kingdom of JUDAH (the Jews, which included Judah and Benjamin). And ENMITY began between these two that exists to this day: the Jews (kingdom of Judah, tribes of Judah and Benjamin, today known as the Nation/State of Israel)... and the Arabs (the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel, the Samaritans, known today as the "Palenstinians").
3. When the nation split, the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel LEFT off worship at the temple. My Father allowed them to be captured by the Assyrians and they, ISRAEL (the "Samaritans") were exiled into Samaria and set up false worship at their capital there, BETHEL, under Jeroboam. And rather than stick to the arrangement made by JAH, Jeroboam began taking priests from AMONG THE PEOPLE, whomever he WISHED, and installed them as priests. As a result, some of the Levitical priests LEFT Israel... joined up with JUDAH... and served in the temple at Jerusalem. Israel (the Samaritans) were then referred to as "Oholah".
4. THEN, the 2-tribe kingdom (Judah), left, too! They would
'come and go' in their pure worship, depending on the king. Some were 'good' kings; some were 'bad' kings. When they finally left entirely (except for a 'remnant'), they were referred to as "Oholibah". Their priests began doing obscene things in the temple and oppressing the people. Their king, Rehoboam, was told to LIFT the load on the people. But... he only pushed them harder. As kings came and went, Judah became worse. Finally, under the reign of Zedekiah, who sought help from the nations rather that from my Father, Judah's TRUE king, my Father allowed the BABYLONIANS to come against Judah, who were then exiled into Babylon. It was NOT all of Israel who were exiled into Babylon... ONLY the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah (the Jews).
5. When my Lord arrived on earth in the flesh, he brought TWO great 'sacred secrets':
a. That he would REMOVED the 'fence' that separated Israel and Judah, and the two would once again become ONE - Ephesians 2:14
b. And that for Israel who did NOT 'return' to JAH, their place in the kingdom of God would be given... TO THE NATIONS. That is why although the 12 apostles were apostles to the JEWS... PAUL... was an 'apostle to the NATIONS'.
6. Unfortunately, rather than accepting my Lord as Israel's 'messiah', ISRAEL... the Jews AND the Samaritans... approved of his execution. As a RESULT... MANY 'seats' in the kingdom, that would have been occupied by Israel... were lost... and given to the NATIONS. Which fulfilled my Lord's pre-arrangement to INCLUDE the nations. Rather than be like Israel, who HAD the Law written in STONE, but failed to live by it, the many of the NATIONS showed themselves to have the Law written on their HEARTS, for they treated one another right. Israel, rather than using the Law to see their OWN error and where THEY were sinners individually, used it to judge and condemn.
7. The small group of Israelites (Jews AND Samaritans) that accepted my Lord, were referred to as the 'little flock'. THESE... are the 'holy ones', holy be means of being Abraham's 'seed'... and thus, those who were 'blessed' by my Father.
8. The OTHER 'sheep', are those of the NATIONS, who WITH Israel (the Jews AND the Samaritans)... become ONE 'flock'... with one shepherd.
9. So... John FIRST saw 144,000 from 'the sons of ISRAEL'... which number had been 'sealed'. My Father's promise to Abraham had been GUARANTEED. But AFTERWARD, John saw a 'great crowd'... which NO man was able to number, out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people, INCLUDING those of fleshly Israel who were not counted among those sealed. And he saw this group... STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD... WEARING WHITE ROBES... and RENDERING SACRED SERVICE IN HIS TEMPLE. Only... PRIESTS... can render sacred service in the temple, dear one.
All of this has its PROOF in the words of Revelation 5:9, 10.
The WTBTS has MISLED folks into believing the that 144,000 are made of Israel and the nations; it is not. Revelation 7:4 SAYS who make up this group. They would also have you believe that the 'great crowd' are NOT in heaven, do not GO to heaven, and are not a part of the priestly/kingly arrangement of my Father and my Lord. Again, they are in error and those who believe this... have been misled.
Revelation 19:1 SAYS that John heard the voice as that of a great crowd in heaven... because the great crowd WAS in heaven! These are the ones that rule WITH 'the holy ones', the ones to whom Paul addressed his letters 'to the holy ones... AND faithful ones/brothers... IN UNION with Christ.' They are NOT the 'holy ones'... but are FELLOW CITIZENS of the holy ones... and together WITH them... are being built up into a PLACE for God to occupy with His Spirit. That 'place', indeed ANY place that holds the spirit of God... is called a 'TEMPLE'!
Ephesians 2:19-21
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 1:1
Ephesians 1:1
Colossians 1:1
The apostles were Jews, Israelites, as was Cornelius. He was an Israelite, and therefore a BROTHER of the Jews, by means of being a SAMARITAN. He was an officer in the Roman Army, assigned to his home province of Caesarea... SAMARIA. The woman at the well, a Samaritan also, was also a 'brother' of my Lord. That is why she SAID to my Lord, when questioning the place of worship... "OUR forefathers (meaning his AND hers)... USED to worship in this mountain. But YOU people (meaning the Jews) say that we must worship at the temple (after Jeroboam, the Samaritans no longer worshipped in Jerusalem, but in the mountains of Samaria, at Bethel)."
It was then that my Lord said to her that the day would come when those worshipping the Father would do it neither in the mountains, in Jerusalem... or at the temple. For such ones would WORSHIP the Father... IN SPIRIT... and in the TRUTH (John 8:32; 14:6; 8:36).
It is when ALL of the nations have 'come in'... when that 'number', which NO man knows... is FULL... that my Father will once again turn his attention to ISRAEL... the fleshly seed of Abraham. And at THAT time... ALL of Israel will be allowed BACK in... and saved.
Romans Chapter 11
Indeed, some of Israel were 'grafted OUT', so that the nations COULD be 'brought in'. But my Father will NOT forget Israel forever. For He made a PROMISE to Abraham... and that promise WILL be fulfilled... entirely... for my Father, JAH OF ARMIES... 'cannot lie'. Just as it came forth from His mouth to Abraham, so it will be.
The State of Israel today, along with Palestine, are fighting a futile war. The State of Israel IS occupying land granted to the Palestinians/Arabs by my Father. HOWEVER... none of this has ANYTHING to do with the kingdom of my Lord, for my Lord's kingdom... is NO part of THIS world! The TRUE 'restoration' of Israel... will take place in THAT kingdom, the kingdom 'of the Son of His Love'... New Jerusalem. That is the 'house' of my Father, and the residing place of my Lord. That is where his 'table' is situated... and it is where Israel... AND those of the 'nations' CHOSEN to BE Israel... will 'recline'... with Abraham and Isaac.
I, myself, SJ, have related to you this TRUTH, just as I heard it from my Lord. I bid you peace, and I am...
Your servant, as I am servant to ALL of the Household of God, Israel, and those who 'go with' them... and a slave of Christ.
Fredhall

AGuest,
Look who's lying know? You!!
AGuest

Specifically, in what way, Fred?
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Kent

After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude IN HEAVEN ......
It's Booze Rutherford and his Henchmen having a bad hangover!
Yakki Da
Kent
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://watchtower.observer.org
I_am_an_idiot

Boy, that was a long complicated explanation. At least, it was to me, see I_am_an_idiot. I have read John 10 trying to find an explanation of the "other sheep", but no where in the context do I find that Jesus is explaining the difference between Jews and gentiles. I see that he starts out talking about his sheep and then all of sudden mentions the "other sheep". In my simple mind, I understand these "other sheep" to be different for the earlier sheep mentioned in the chapter. Could there be a different? I have read that these "other sheep" will inherit the earth. I thing that sounds good. At least, it's simple enough for me and I would like to live on earth.
Well, that's my version, but I_am_an_idiot.
AGuest

Hello, URN-Idjit... and may you have peace!
May I try to explain it this way? Thank you:
1. A 'man' (JAH) had some 'special' sheep, two of them (Adam and Eve). These sheep were PUREBRED blackfaced sheep (hey, I don't know the breed, okay?). God gave the sheep the BEST clover to eat and told the sheep, 'Don't eat from that thistle bush over there... or you'll choke... and die.'
2. A 'wicked man' (Satan) came along and told the sheep, 'You won't die. God knows that THAT thistle, tastes WAY better than that old clover you're eating. AND... if you eat the thistle... YOU'LL BE LIKE GOD. Hey, you can be your OWN shepherd and you won't NEED God to tell youse what 'ta eat!" And so, they ate. You know the rest of this part...
3. The original pair of sheep were allowed to produce MORE blackfaced sheep (Hebrews first, then Israelites - okay, so I skipped a few generations...). Only these sheep weren't completely 'pure'. They were... uh, say, 'octaroon' (1/8th blackface, but not quite 'mutts'... well, not yet.). That's because their 'blood' was now changed from PURE blood, to, uh, inter-sheep-ial (sorry, but that's all I could think of...) blood. But... they were STILL very valuable sheep.
4. Although the NEW blackfaced sheep (Israel) weren't PUREBRED, they were VERY close to it (not interbred with the 'nations'). So, the 'man' (God) separated these sheep out from all other sheep (circumcision) and kept them in a special pen (the Law Covenant).
5. Certain 'other' sheep (non-Israelites/'nations'), saw the special treatment the black-faced sheep got, and the strength and love of their shepherd, wanted some of that sweet clover... and decided to 'join' that flock. But before they could, the 'other' sheep had to be 'sheared' (circumcised, too) and enter into the special pen (Law Covenant). THESE sheep were permitted to interbreed with the black-faced sheep... but no other sheep were. That's because these 'other' sheep SAID that they were agreeable to staying in the pen... and eating sweet clover. They also SAID had no problem staying away from sheep NOT in the pen... and other wild and 'unclean' domestic animals. And so, in time, this first group of 'other sheep' became so inbred with the blackfaced sheep, that you could no longer tell them apart.
6. But, together, these sheep were, uh... baaaaaa-aaaad. They kept getting out of the pen, running around, uh, 'interbreeding' with other sheep that were not of the ones that they were permitted to interbreed with. Not ALL of the them, but MOST of them. There were a few sheep that were fine staying in the pen, eating sweet clover.
7. THEN, the baaaaa-aaad sheep got SO bad, they even started interbreeding with GOATS, until after awhile, some became 'sheep-goats', and some almost not sheep at all, but PURE goat! And THEN... they started attacking the sheep-sheep, the ones that had NO problem eating sweet clover, and trying to get THEM to run around and do 'unsheeplike' stuff. Stuff like... eating cans... and head-butting just to be mean!
8. After awhile, the man (God), decided to he was tired of those baaaa-aaad sheep. Heck, they didn't even LOOK like sheep anymore, but like, well, 'wild beasts' almost. Where was his beautiful, cared for, DOMESTICATED sheep? They had intermingled SO much, they were no longer recognizable from many of the other ordinary run of the mill farm animals. Some had even intermingled with PIGS... and taken to rolling in the MUD! Some of the 'man's' once clean and well-cared for sheep were... FILTHY! Some of them, while they WEREN'T wild beasts, but domestic farm animals, certainly didn't even LOOK like sheep! Heck, maybe they WEREN'T sheep anymore: didn't look like sheep; didn't smell like sheep; didn't ACT like sheep. By now, the 'man' wanted simply to just, well, BARBEQUE them all! I mean, he was, after all, a SHEEP-herder! Not a swine-monger!
10. But... every time the man started to warm up the Weber, the 'sheep' would start crying and bleating and saying... "Weeeerrrree ssooorrrryyy! We ARE baaaaa-aaaad sheep! But we're YOU'RE sheeeeeppp!" And, indeed, he LOVED his sheep (as he stood there scratching his head trying to tell which ones WERE sheep...)
11. Someone else loved the sheep, too. The 'man's' son. For he had spent his childhood out in the field playing with and helping his Father shepherd the sheep. He had WATCHED the sheep grow... and had watched them change. He had tried to warn the sheep for his father, but... they had spent just TOO much time around the 'goats'. So, they became STUBBORN... and wouldn't listen to him. But... he loved them.
12. So, the son talked the father out of barbequing the sheep and said, "Let ME have them, Father! I will tame them again. Let me go out into the field one last time." The Father, knowing that the sheep had seriously changed, but knowing his love... and his son's love... said, "Okay. I'll give those sheep one last chance. You TAME them... I'll keep them. Their YOURS." (Lord KNOWS they had come close to being barbequed on SEVERAL occasions. In fact, some of them HAD actually found themselves on a skewer from time to time! Didn't need no 'sauce', either!)
13. And so, the son went out into the field. "Look, sheep," he said. "You guys are REAL close to being sold at the market. In fact, Dad was JUST talking about having some friends over for a 'feast'. He even pulled out the Weber... and you know what THAT means! Now, look, I know it's been hard for you guys being isolated from all of the OTHER SHEEP out there, and so, maybe you felt you HAD to intermingling with these 'unclean' farm animals. But, GOOD NEWS! My father has given you over to ME... and I am building a NEW pen (New Covenant)... and I have OTHER SHEEP that will come into this pen! Yep, ALL kinds of sheep are welcome! Black-face, brown-face, Jew-face, Greek-face, free-face, slave-face, TWO-faced... I don't care. As long as you let ME shepherd you, you can be in my 'pen'.
14. But instead of getting the POINT... those baaaaa-aaad sheep got REALLY 'wild'. You see, they had AGAIN got out of their pen (the Law Covenant), and while the son was on his way out the field, those bad sheep went from mingling with goats and swine to... MINGLING WITH WOLVES! Ooooh! And so, when they saw the son coming, well, the 'good', sheep went hopping, skipping out to meet him (well, he just MIGHT have some carrots in his pockets - uh, do sheep eat carrots?). But when he got to the pen, the BAAAAAAA-AAAD sheep... ATTACKED the son! Having learned some 'bad habits' from the WOLVES... they grabbed him by his garments... dragged him through the field... hung him on the fence... and KILLED him! Wild animals, all!
15. Right before he died, though, the son BEGGED his father not to hold this bad thing against those sheep.
16. And as a result of the SON'S love for ALL sheep... the 'good' sheep... as well as all of the OTHER SHEEP... get to go into the new 'pen' (NEW Covenant). This NEW pen, however, is built... RIGHT IN THE MAN'S HOUSE! No more sleepin' in the field! No more shiverin' at night as wolves circle the pen smackin' their chops, lickin' their lips, look for a good piece 'o mutton to gnaw on! No more pullin' together piles of scratchy hay to lie down on! Oh, no! The sheep NOW get soft cushy pillows to 'recline' on! They can eat AT THE TABLE... WITH the man and his son!
17. AND... eventually... even the 'baaaaaa-aad' black-faced sheep, are allowed to come into THIS pen. That's because while the man WAS tired of them... he is also QUITE merciful... and MUCH more loving than those bad sheep. For where do you think the SON learned it?
How's that, URN-Idgit? I tried to break it down as SIMPLY as I could. Let me know if you need it a little more 'elementary' than that.
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
God_knows

The Tribulation saints and the Bride of Christ (Raptured before the tribulation) will be in heaven.

Rev. 19:1

Share this