Constitutional Amendment : Slippery Slope

by patio34 41 Replies latest social current

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    You are putting words in my mouth. No one has used the term Theocracy.

    I am arguing from the Christian perspective, so you are right, the Muslims are not an example of Christian teachings nor a way of life that I agree with.

    However, the same argument can be made for pure Secular governments (even more-so). If you think you would fair better under Stalin, help yourself.

    The Magna Carta was an example of "Religious" consideration and foundation, or an acknowledgment. I stand by my claim

    Over-generalizing comes in the form of the claim that "the US was not founded on religious views." This is false. The US is a good example of Modern day Nation, based on religious principles.

    The "Self Evident Truths" have now been muddled in the rewriting of History.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Proof of my claim made above.....

    Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. (1892) This case shows that the ACLU and others are so far from the truth that it's dizzying. Contemporary First Amendment jurisprudence suffers from legal Alzheimer's Disease. This decision has been flushed down the Orwellian Memory Hole.

    History means nothing. Truth means nothing.

    There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people.
    These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.
    In P UBLIC C ITIZEN v. D EPARTMENT OF J USTICE , 491 U.S. 440 (1989), J USTICE K ENNEDY , with whom T HE C HIEF J USTICE and J USTICE O'C ONNOR join, concurring in the judgment, wrote:
    The Church of the Holy Trinity entered into a contract with an alien residing in England to come to the United States to serve as the director and pastor of the church. Notwithstanding the fact that this agreement fell within the plain language of the statute, which was conceded to be the case, see ibid., the Court overrode the plain language, drawing instead on the background and purposes of the statute to conclude that Congress did not intend its broad prohibition to cover the importation of Christian ministers. The central support for the Court's ultimate conclusion that Congress did not intend the law to cover Christian ministers is its lengthy review of the "mass of organic utterances" establishing that "this is a Christian nation," and which were taken to prove that it could not "be believed that a Congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation." Id., at 471.
    Justice David Brewer, The United States: A Christian Nation (1905)
    Justice Brewer pointed out that his claim (that America is a "Christian nation") reached into the "organic law" of the nation, and every State in the union, thus putting it on the firmest of legal authority. The claim that America is a Christian nation is in "the domain of official action and recognition," not mere "individual acceptance." (p 27 in 1996 reprint).
  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    The Ten Commandments are for lame brains. The first five are solely for the benefit of the priests and the powers that be; the second five are half truths, neither complete nor adequate. Robert Heinlein.

    Anyone attempting to "prove" that secular government is impossible, using the USSR as the evidence, is obviously in a deep state of denial regarding the damage done by ostensibly religious governments. One secular government, or one religious government, does not proof make.

    Your interpretation of Franklin's letter is amusing - it can also easily be interpreted to be the words of a man who sees religion primarily as a means of keeping the masses governable, rather than as a path to truth. Franklin was cynical. Point: No one has accused the Founding Fathers of being atheists... but you fight that battle often, since you know you can make the point. Other points you avoid, it seems.

    Where does a "religious view" end? The mark of an advanced culture could very well be progressing from justice occasionally imposed by religious fiat to justice more regularly imposed by rule of law. The significance of the Magna Carta was not its religious influence - no document at the time could have avoided it - but that the rule of written law became levated above the whims of rulers.

    Just out of curiousity, where did the non-blue text come from? If one were to look through your recent posts, one would notice that your writing style and spelling seems to vary widely... as does the font, size, and spacing of your text. Either you are composing in word and formatting there and then pasting, or you are copying-and-pasting from other sources. Just wondering...

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/67274/1051912/post.ashx#1051912

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/67274/1051891/post.ashx#1051891

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/67541/1052986/post.ashx#1052986

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Stranger (to History?):

    The issue is not if the laws appeal to you. The issue is are we a Nation based and founded on religious views? I have made my claim, and the reasons for my claim.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    The Blue gives the referenced Author at the bottom citing this as the case, in this topic. If you would bother to read the post, you can do the research. The Case history is linked in blue to go to the case (if it does not work, let me know and I will print out the references...In other areas, "Proof"of my claim is used as just that, proof.

    I have many notes and information that I am assembling for a debate paper on points and authorities..I am using this information here via "cut & paste" so, the fonts will be different.

    Instead of using the poison well tactic, try addressing the issues.....or are you out of them...?

    ""Anyone attempting to "prove" that secular government is impossible, using the USSR as the evidence, is obviously in a deep state of denial regarding the damage done by ostensibly religious governments. One secular government, or one religious government, does not proof make. ""

    Who says? you? Give us an example of a pure secular government that has worked like the US?

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    I stated an alternate reason for your varied post appearances, and I accept your explanation, pissy as it may be. I asked you a question - a reasonable question in light of other posts here lately - and I supplied a potential explanation with it to show that I was not set on a particular answer.

    So is this your web site? http://members.aol.com/EndTheWall/organic_law.htm . Your text appears there verbatim, so that must be you.

    Your citation of Brewer's dictum is refuted here. http://ahpa.azpolitics.net/columns/sam1-23-00.htm

    Justice Brewer's statements are no more precedent than Justice Blackmun's similarly-lengthy recitation of baseball legends in [ital] Flood v. Kuhn [unital], 407 U.S. 258 (1972), the baseball antitrust case. All subsequent courts (with one possible exception) have cited [ital] Holy Trinity [unital] for its actual holding, that courts must read statutes sensibly to avoid absurd results from a blindly literal interpretation...

    Second, a more accurate reading of Justice Brewer's dictum is that we Americans are a "religious people." The opinion does not grant Christianity legal privilege or establish it to the exclusion of other religions or of non-belief. The opinion's historical discussion of religion makes the point that the immigration law should not be interpreted in a way that infringes on the free exercise of religion. Justice Brewer, in his later writings, made this point absolutely clear. He noted that the United States is "Christian" only in that many of its people so believe, but that the religion should not receive legal status nor should non-Christians be compelled in any way to support Christianity.

    I believe that the Founding Fathers, all of whom were either believers or did not wish to appear otherwise, went out of their way to create a government with no official religion and with no ties to one. They wanted to create a secular nation where citizens had the freedom to worship as they pleased, if they pleased. They created a nation with slavery, with narrowly-limited right of franchise on economic, racial, and gender lines, and with a similar lack of protection to ethnic, gender, and economic minorities. And yet, using the principles they handed down to us, we have managed to create a society freer and more just than any Founding Father could have envisioned through the spectacles of 18th-century acculturation.

    They managed to create a government that has since risen above their individual faults and prejudices. I have no desire to return to them. Rather, I want to continue such struggle with our own.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    "...damage done by ostensibly religious governments. "

    This merits a reply, and a separate debate. I am arguing for Christian Civilization. If you do not know the contributions of science, culture and laws made by this society in the last 2000 years, then you are in denial.....(You can start with Newton and work your way up...)

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    I did link the site. and called it the "proof" The seeds you are trying plant deserve my responce, frank. Any comments on the cases cited?

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    I am not having a debate on whether science has been enabled by religion. The Arabs, the Chinese, and others made plenty of scientific progress too... it's in human nature... but I cede the field to others, as I have dinner company and I have to get cooking.

    Talking to a conservative is like talking to a refrigerator. The light goes on, the light goes off...it's not going to do anything that's not programmed into it. Utah Phillips.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    My name's not frank.

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