Abaddon....It's really kewl discovering how one thing is connected to another, like how the Greek demi-god Mopsus relates to a real Cilician dynasty and the traditions of the biblical Samson, who (as a member of the tribe of Dan) is linked to the Danunans who are again linked to Mopsus in a different way. Or how the biblical traditions about the Rephaim as a race of giants living in Bashan reflect the earlier tradition among the Canaanites that the god Rapiu (ancestor of the Rephaim) was enthroned in Bashan. Not to mention that the divine mlk Rapiu was also connected to the Greek demi-god Hercules, and how the third-millenium worship of mlk Rapiu as a deified ancestor of kings, and the Amorite tracing of royal lineages to Rapiu and the Didanum, all relates to the Ugaritic and the biblical traditions about the Rephaim and Nephilim. Its fun seeing how one clue leads to another and how things link together in unpredictable ways, as in a whodunnit detective mystery.
The enigmatic mystery of the Nephilim, the Rephaim, and the Titans
by Leolaia 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
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gitasatsangha
I think the link between Vedic culture(I'm trying not to use the word Hinduism here, since that's a recently invented term), and the Mesopotamian can at least be understood as an Aryan migratory connection. For instance. Mithra (or Mitra) was/is worshipped in Vedic culture, Zoreastrianism, and Manicheanism, and then made it as far as Rome. There are, of course, interesting paralells between Jesus and Mithra. There are some between Jesus and Dionysius that are too close to be explained away as coincidence, closer ten even the Krishna, Jesus parallells. Coins have been found with Mitra and Dionysius on either side.
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Leolaia
You know, in writing that huge long post, I never even consulted Mark Smith! Anyway, here is some more supporting evidence he mentions. There are other scriptures that use the term mlk to refer to the leader of the dead, and a few also link mlk and mlk sacrifices with the Rapha:
"By all means a people must consult its gods ('lhym) and, on the behalf of the living, consult the dead (mwt). To obtain a revelation and a testimony, without doubt this is how they talk, but the Shining One (shr, Shahar) will not be there for them. Distressed and starving he wanders about the netherworld ('rz), and in a frenzy he blasphemes his king (mlk), and as he turns his gaze upward the gods ('lhym). But in the netherworld he finds only distress and darkness, the blackness of anguish, and sees nothing but night." (Isaiah 8:19-22; cf. 57:9)
"You carried the tent of Moloch (mlk) on your shoulders and the star of the god Rephan, those idols that you had made to adore." (Amos 5:25-27, LXX; cf. Acts 7:43)
"And immediately the Spirit of God departed from me and I became weak as well as foolish in my words. From this also I was compelled by her to build a temple of idols to Baal and to Rapha and to Moloch and to other idols." (Testament of Solomon 26:6 [P])
" Surely, the guilty will abide in the retribution of Gehenna forever. Never will the retribution be commuted for them; they will be confined therein. It is not us who wronged them; it is they who wronged their own souls. They will implore: 'O Maalek, let your Lord finish us off." He will say, "You are staying forever. ' " (Quran, sura 43:77)
One inscription also seems to link rp' mlk with the god Nergal, which suggests possibly that the old Rapiu god became conflated at some point with Resheph, the chthonic god of disease.
Oooooh, ooohh, I just discovered another fantastic thing. Recall the scripture I mentioned from Proverbs about the Rephaim residing in the "valleys of Sheol", and how the Valley of the Rephaim was associated in Joshua and other books with the Hinnom Valley. Well, note also how Ahaz and his successors were described as indulging in the mlk sacrifice in the Valley of Hinnom (cf. 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chronicles 28:3), that is, the honoring of Rapha and the Rephaim, and I bet this eschatological connection with the Rephaim of the netherworld with the Hinnom is the real reason why Gehenna was associated with the dead and the netherworld in post-exilic Judaism.
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gitasatsangha
The land flowing with mlk and hannah?
sorry.. terrible pun
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kazar
Wow! I am speechless at all this information. I always wanted to know about Nephilim and how they came about but the Witnesses could never give me a satisfying answer. They need to come here to learn the facts. Thank you so much for posting that information. You are very considerate to do so. Not to mention you know your facts. If I have a problem I can't solve, can I call on you? Just kidding. But thank you for real.
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Leolaia
The interesting thing about the Witnesses is that they completely sidestep the issue of the Rephaim as "shades of the dead" in any discussion of the afterlife and the immortality of the soul. The Society examines the meanings of Hebrew words she'ol and nephesh, but never consider the implications of repha'im. The only discussion of this term that I know of, contained in the Insight book, does nothing to pursue these implications. For instance, it is widely known that the usage of the term in Isaiah very closely resembles that in Phoenician inscriptions and in Ugaritic texts. The article also gives an erroneous etymology of the term, deriving it from a term meaning "become weak, sunk (?)" (rph) rather than "to heal" (rp') which philologically is the actual source, and the phrase used the translate the word in the NWT is based on the erroneous etymology.
Since the time I wrote this post, I have followed it up with a few other posts on the same subject. The following post on the Book of Giants (an extracanonical writing affiliated with 1 Enoch) describes how Gilgamesh was named as one of the Nephilim:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/69401/1.ashx
Also I explored the possibility that stories about the Rephaim in both Canaanite myths and in the OT refer to objects and relics in the environment that were already ancient by the time these stories were composed:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/71735/1.ashx
And on the cult of Molech (the chthonic god associated with the Rephaim), I discuss in the following thread how this Israelite cult was the source of the intertestamental concept of Gehenna as the valley where the wicked are punished with fire:
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candidlynuts
sorry to bump up such an older post..
Leolai if you read this.. have you done any other articles (other than the other 3 listed) about these topics?
very interesting reads.. dunno if i've told you lately but i really appreciate the articles you post here!
you should work up your own website and have your articles all in one spot !
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stillajwexelder
bttt because it is a fabulous thread
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belbab
What a gold mine of information, Leoliea,
If any want to bring the realm of mythology into present day reality consider this:
On the news here the other day was pictures of the world's tallest man.
Do a Google, for world's tallest man, Ukraine, growth hormone etc.
Here is a link:
http://thecrazynewsblog.com/2007/08/09/move-over-bao-say-hello-to-the-newest-worlds-tallest-man/
I have other comments on Leoliea's thread, be back later.
belbab
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Gill
Wow! Absolutely fantastic! I have been researching giants in mythology and giant skeletons and the Gogmagog giants of ancient Britain, when it was in mythology known as Albion!
Amazing to have someone else resurrect this amazing thread.
Amazing to realise that despite the changes caused by the 'chinese whispers effect', that giants did roam the Earth and giant human remains have been found along with dinosaur remains.
To realise that history is not what we have been told. That history is used by the powers that be to control and manipulate and distort is both shocking and enlightening!
Thanks Leolaia and Stilla for bringing the thread back to life!!!