H2O update

by TheHighPriest 34 Replies latest jw friends

Francois

Simon, I figgured you could ban someone if you wanted, but haven't noticed that you have. Maybe I'm just dense, or have assumed that since the likes of You Know and Fred Hall are allowed to say anything that comes to mind (in the case of Mr. Hall, I realize the use of "mind" is an awful large word to use in describing such a small phenomena) as do others of their ilk, that banning was just something you didn't engage in.
Only the intellectually-challenged like the folk at H20 seem ready to ban someone at the drop of a non-approved thought. They have become like the God they worship; the WTBTS. The Borg disfellowships, H2O bans. What could be more natural?
Franc
My $0.02
Simon

I have nothing against people defending their beliefs or holding and arguing a particular viewpoint as long as they are sincere (very hard to judge) and don't attack or harrass others.
I know some people have maybe crossed the line and not been treated in a consistent way as other have. I'm only human and probably do make different decisions depending on the day I've had.
Besides, Fred and You Know must be send-ups surely ? If anyone identified with their arguments it should immediately make them question their own beliefs.
Jang

Francoise
Only the intellectually-challenged like the folk at H20 seem ready to ban someone at the drop of a non-approved thought. They have become like the God they worship; the WTBTS. The Borg disfellowships, H2O bans. What could be more natural?
That's isn't the case on the new board now which is why the FPP has been removed.
Moderation on H2O will be the same as it is here ..... helping people learn how to use the boards
Give them the credit due that they have changed and will conditnue to change
JanG
CAIC Website: http://caic.org.au/zjws.htm
Personal Webpage: http://uq.net.au/~zzjgroen/
waiting

hey Francoise,
Did you ever post on a regular basis over at H20? If so, was it using another name? I really don't remember *Francoise* posting over there, nor someone saying they were a male long-time professional journalist of about 60 years old.
If you had another name, care to identify? If not, why are you so negative about the place?
The Borg disfellowships, H2O bans. What could be more natural?
Soooooo, any place which has guidelines/rules they enforce is like the WTBTS? Does this apply to other areas also - like schools, parks, restaurants, movies, stores, churches, political rallies, libraries, counties, cities, states, countries?
I truly think that most places, even free, have guidelines - and have the ability to enforce them - one way or another. I know if someone comes in my store, which is open to the public, and starts cussing me or another customer out - I'm going to call the police and throw his ass out. If he continually comes in here, spills things after being asked not to bring drinks in, comes in drunk, spits his chewing tobacco on the floor for me to clean up, pees on the floor beside the urinals for me to clean up, is rude, etc. - I'll do the same, after asking, then warning him to stop. It's my place, I think I have that right - but I'll try to be careful so I won't be sued for discrimination in the process - or shot.
My point is - there are very few places that one can have total freedom to say exactly what they want, or act exactly like they feel, except alone in their own dwelling. Most every place else has guidelines which someone, somewhere, moderates.
waiting
Farkel

LOL! Rick is a mess, isn't he?
Seeker,
Rick said:
"First, we don't want this majority of people who trashed H2O over the years back."
: Since Rick has implicitly included me in this category, then I choose not to return to H2O. I'm not wanted there.
He has gone out of his way to also include me in this category, too. I warned Rick before I left to be careful what he asked for, he may just get it. H20 is now like a brand new board and must be built from scratch. There is nothing to build upon currently. There is no way to have any meaningful discussions or controversy the way he still has it set up and managed.
Tina,
: Well Jang,
: No,nothing has changed. The post is quite clear.
: I've seen more newbies come here and stay in a few months then all my time on h20.
: And why did rick feel it necessary to slam Farkel AGAIN?
Was it because within one to two weeks of me announcing I was leaving H20 and posting a link to this site, H20 went from the world's premiere JW discussion board to a virtual ghost town and remains so these several months later? :)
Rick can take his board and shove it up his hard drive, for all I care.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Kent,
: I really don't think anyone expected Rick to write anything else but this. It's an unbeatable evidence nothing has changed, and the fact is H2O will still be stone dead.
Yep! He's his own worst enemy and a control-freak just like his religious masters. They've trained him well.
Farkel
Roamingfeline

Okay, I'm going to try to put myself in the place I was mentally/emotionally five years ago, and try to tell you how I saw H20 at that time. Back then, I was the good little witness, who makes mistakes and gets pounded on by the elders. (Especially because I was the only member of my family in the 'trooth') I was still thinking it was the true religion, was feeling like I wasn't good enough for it, and that I would soon be killed at ARmageddon. But the key words here are "I STILL THOUGHT IT WAS THE TRUTH".
Someone who is in that stage still has the programming to think that mixing with Apostates is akin to asking for certain death from God. So, this newbie to the internet comes online, types "Jehovah's Witnesses" into a search engine, and suddenly is faced with a smorgasboard of so called "apostate" sites. The JW seeing this has never seen anything like it before.. Totally naive to what is out there. I was, folks. Totally naive. I started reading H20. Back then it wasn't quite as vitriolic as it is today, but getting there. I wrote to Liberal Elder, truly asking for help to understand what I was seeing, and got NO response. None. Nada.
I read some more, day by day.. I checked out other sites, and printed the entire site of the Reform on Blood info. I took it home, read every word, and an entire new world started opening to my very eyes.

Now, Farkel,and others who no longer believe in God, please don't think I'm running you down here. I like you, I really do. I see things today, alot like you see them. But thinking back to who I was back then, had I seen your posts and been the object of your jibes about the Bible and God, it would totally have turned me off and sent me running back to the Organization, BECAUSE I STILL THOUGHT IT WAS THE "TROOTH". People in that position need BABY FOOD, not meat, just like we were taught to do when sucking people into the cult as JW's out in "field service". If the first thing they see when they get on the internet is the hearty meaty verbal dinners that most of the H20's former participants feed people, they are going to go shrieking back to the arms of the Kingdom Hall, certain they've just been tempted by Satan himself in Farkel's clothing, so to speak.
Unless they are Smelders, MS', DO's, or CO's, (who obviously can take the heat, as they are bound to know what the Tower has been up to all these years), the average JW isn't ready to hear all that at once. They do need spoonfeeding for a time until they face what we who have been around here for a few years had to face, that they've been duped. It's not easy to accept it, or to overcome the humiliation of knowing you threw half your life away to a mirage. It's not easy to wake up from the dream, and you have to do it gently, not with clanging symbols and beating drums.
Now, I am not saying that Rick isn't a controlling so and so, but I am saying that there needs to be a kinder/gentler forum where these "Early outies" need to be able to go, the way Simon's USED to be. Maybe H20 can fulfill that role now, and the heavyweights can continue posting here, where they feel welcome and comfortable. Simon is a great forum owner. He knows how to handle things, and he is very humble. We're all very lucky that he came along and cared to open this place. But there is room for H20 too, maybe just as a different type of forum than it used to be. Both can be useful, and both are needed, I think.
Hugs,
RCat
waiting

Hey RCat,
It's not easy to accept it, or to overcome the humiliation of knowing you threw half your life away to a mirage. It's not easy to wake up from the dream,
I agree fully. Much time, money, love, bigotry, blindness, etc., is invested into the jw's way of life. Almost all of us have lived it. I have a brother-in-law who I swear sees some of the major problems. But you can almost see the blinders come back on when he speaks about them. And he puts them on by himself - being a elder and all.
Some jw's come here after leaving the org within their hearts & minds. Others are just beginning to doubt. When leaving the WTBTS, a person's ego takes such a beating, and the paranoia runs amuck - "what is Armageddon happens tomorrow" "have you *ever* seen such a horrible snowstorm?????" We laugh now, but I know I looked over my shoulder quite a bit when I first left, and I've read of others doing the same.
Do we need to add to their burden, slap them upside the head? Maybe some, but it would be good to let them establish themselves first as individuals. Give them places to go, people to talk to. One forum can't handle all jw's, imho.
Man, I can remember how I hated to be shoved in any direction when first coming to Simon's. I just wanted to read & chat - not necessarily have to defend every word or thought I had. I'm so grateful that it was easy going back then. If I would take the same stance today, I don't think I would be given the latitude to just *be* and learn to communicate with *apostates.* And, learn that all of them don't bite.
Btw, Ros and Kent have an ongoing discussion over at H20 on moderators which is really good. If I've already said this - sorry for the repeat, but it's worth looking into.
waiting
Derrick

Dear MyMichelle,
> I'm not going to make a comment about any other part of the H2O post except for these two parts:
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just who are these so-called "other interested ones" in the last part of your byline?
> These are people who are no longer Jehovah's Witnesses for whatever reasons, and are interested in dialog with those who are still faithful Jehovah's Witnesses.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am thankful that when I stumbled across the old H2O in the fall of 99 that such a limited definition of "other interested ones" was not listed. I am not, never have been, and cannot imagine ever becoming a JW, but since my spouse and in-laws are part of this organization, I have considered myself an "interested one". If that definition had been posted, I would not have registered to post and would have missed out on conversing with some very helpful people--I doubt that my marriage would have survived.
I'm encouraged to hear that your marriage survived as a result of conversing with some very helpful people through H2O. Considering the efforts and personal expense to run the old site at Cyberpass, it makes the effort feel all the more worthwhile.
I want to address your point regarding my quote defining "other interested ones." I've always considered my posts works in progress, and those who have been on H2O since its beginning will attest to my practically begging participants to extensively comment on my posts. Sometimes I conclude that if nobody comments, it must mean approval. However, since nobody brought up this obvious error in my post on H2O, evidently many lack the time or energy to brings these points to my attention.
In this quote which I was in error, I defined "other interested ones" as taken from your quote above as follows:
"These are people who are no longer Jehovah's Witnesses for whatever reasons, and are interested in dialog with those who are still faithful Jehovah's Witnesses."
I made an error in expressing myself, something that I'm sure you and others can relate as having done yourselves from time to time. I should have wrote:
"These are people who are <b>not or</b> no longer Jehovah's Witnesses for whatever reasons, and are interested in dialog with those who are still faithful Jehovah's Witnesses."
(I bolded the two words that I originally omitted.)
Sorry for the mistake and subsequent confusion and/or doubts that it caused. Believe it or not, I have very limited time to devote to the administration of H2O and I also can use the excuse that I'm human, subject to error. ;-)
I do appreciate why this caused you frustration and angst, and I'm sincere in stating that you were amongst those "other interested ones" for whom H2O was created, maintained and administered by our Australian brothers and sisters, myself, and many regular participants who chose to volunteer as moderators and Forum Director.
> BTW, I'm thankful that such a limited definition has not been established here.
I totally agree.
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It is obvious therefore that the Watchtower would not approve of baptized Jehovah's Witnesses participating on any discussion board where ex-Jehovah's Witnesses and "worldly people" were also allowed to interact.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It is amazing to me that there are JWs out there that are oblivious to the bigoted viewpoint of that statement. It's okay to preach to "worldly people", interupting their day at whim, but if a "worldly person" wishes to converse with a JW on a DB about JW beliefs, etc. that's just downright unacceptable. Why is that I wonder? Could it be that if a nonJW seeks out JWs on a discussion board that they are more apt to have a clue about WT teachings and may ask uncomfortable questions? What is the reason? Is it viewed as an intrusion? Then why is that not such a worry to JWs when disturbing nonJWs in their homes? Surely one's home should be considered more of a haven than a public internet forum. Things that should make one go hmmmm....
Amen and amen to what you just said! I have seen the real ugly side of what you described on the big online services religion forums, such as those that used to exist on Prodigy and America Online. It was a very one-sided deal, where many JWs believed their ordained role was to preach while the unwashed masses listened. Part of the whole reform movement worldwide is to change this attitude to one of JWs considering themselves part of the human race. Those who believe they are truly blessed by God should have deep empathy for the plight of their brother and sister human beings.
Jesus deeply loved and respected those the world discarded, even those who sold their bodies (and as history will attest, paid the ultimate price by being ravaged by incurable venereal diseases and other maladies). One of the greatest disappointments being one of Jehovah's Witnesses over the last 25 years since my formative teens, was seeing most in my congregation develop a pharasaical arrogance. It was as if there were class distinctions between "the world" and "those who had been washed clean" (due to baptism and affiliation with the faithful and discreet slave class in New York).
Your last comment was especially why I decided to register on this site and clarify my misstatement.
You see, if H2O were for "other interested ones" who were defined only as non-JWs ONLY -- and not for those who were <i>genuinely</i> interested in Jehovah's Witnesses for other good reasons (IOW, for good people like you) -- then the basis of H2O would be highly questionable! If that were the case, then the H2O experience could be likened to looking into distorted mirrors in an amusement park's "fun house" as you exit the "hall of mirrors." H2O itself would be no more than that fun house's "hall of mirrors" that people wander into, get lost in, stumble through, and flee from, only to pass a row of distorted mirrors on their way out the door.
Derrick

Dear RCat,
I wish you would take the time to carefully reread the post that upset you so much. I admit it was a hastilty written and verbose post at that, and a post that got its comeuppance when a volunteer moderator (who gives her precious little time to tend to H2O for the benefit of those like yourself), exiled it to Aimoo's moderator-only Trash Bin.
I have the utmost respect for what Simon has accomplished. I don't know him personally, but empathize with his bullying by those who are supposed to tend to the sheep (not torment and abuse them). I was very sad in reading his account, during my occasional lurking.
Some were upset I take exception with naming the forum "Jehovahs-Witness.com" after the name of our religion, instead of "Simon's Place" or other name. If I had to kiss everyone's ass by sugar coating my opinions just because I'm an administrator of a forum, then I what incentive would I have to suffer in silence like that? Isn't that exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do in their congregations, bite their tongues because the elders might get outraged at their "shocking" opinions?
I suggest if you do not have a copy of this post to reread, that you contact the Forum Director and request a copy. Because I now share the administration of H2O with the brother who has the title of Forum Director -- and I assure you he is not a "diehard" JW by any means -- I think it is best to run this by him. However, I understand some have saved this post before it hit the skids.
Give me the courtesy of reading it carefully, and not reading into it what is not there. Also, if everyone had to speak carefully for fear that a "court reporter" was transcribing their every utterance, how could there be open dialog? That is why I wish people would say, "Rick, you said this, and I interpreted to mean this. Am I reading you correctly?" If we trust one another, or at least give one another the benefit of doubt, then I can respond, "did I say that? Oh wow, I left out two words (see my previous post)," or, "that is what I meant," to which you restate what YOU think I meant, to which I reply, "oh, no, what you just said is NOT what I meant. Maybe I better say it another way."
I think what I'm describing is functional dialog. Not communicating as if we are attorneys on opposing sides looking for misstatements so we can make the opposition look foolish. In a court, words are a game. I have always felt as if some people are seeking out misstatements from others, i.e., some are so intent on proving the Watchtower is wrong they look for poorly worded statements in their publications that those unfamiliar with JWs teachings would misinterpret. In like manner on these forums, opposing sides of issues seem to run with statements that seem damning but often mean something entirely different if the one who said it, was given the opportunity to explain what he meant.
Also, as an aside, I find it sad that some who post here have already judged me as committing the unforgivable sin, and will never forgive me. That brings to mind what a friend of mine said, that there are some on these forums who would never forgive those at the pinacle of the Watchtower if they recognized their past mistakes, acknowledged them, and begged and pleaded for forgiveness. (Last time I posted this, someone said, "but that will never happen," instead of openly addressing if what he said was true or not?) It's ironic I've run across some on these forums who seem less forgiving than the fabled angry God of "Christendom" the Watchtower depicts as sending people to burn in hell, and never forgiving them. In areas where the Watchtower says God forgives the repentant, such as abortion, I have been told by ex-JWs who are "born again" that such forgiveness is not possible.
I would have thought the lesson of the Watchtower for those chosing to remain Christian after leaving, is to be infinitely MORE forgiving and less pharasaical. It's a major disappointment to see JWs who leave become far more strict and unforgiving of sin.
Roamingfeline

That's isn't the case on the new board now which is why the FPP has been removed.
Moderation on H2O will be the same as it is here ..... helping people learn how to use the boards
Give them the credit due that they have changed and will conditnue to change
JanG

Bunk.. pure bunk, Jan. And what happened to my first post over there proves it. NO BOARD OWNER should remove a post, then reply to the post on the main board, "Quoting" the post, without the original post being there for all to see. It's plain bad management, and nothing has changed.
That was my first post to H20 in a long, long time.I wanted to test your words, and the result was not pretty. I will not post there again, nor do I encourage others to post there, as I do believe the owner needs some psychological help. He's not unbiased and emotionally stable enough to run a forum, that's for certain!
RCat
Edited for typos..

H2O update

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