Was the US intended to be a "Christian nation"?

by logansrun 35 Replies latest jw friends

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  Kenneson

  And some Presidents also said this:

  John Quincy Adams: "Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [on the Fourth of July]? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" From John Quincy Adams, An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport at their Request on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1837 (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), page 5 Elsewhere he writes: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

  George Washington in his Farewell Address: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." And again: "Let it simply be asked, 'Where is the security for life, for reputation, and for property, if the sense of religious obligation desert?"

  Thomas Jefferson: "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis--a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?" From Jefferson's "Notes on the States of Virginia," Query XVIII, 1781, page 289

  What some of the other founding fathers have said.

  Patrick Henry. "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ."

  Benjamin Franklin. "If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We've been assured in the sacred writing that, 'Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' "

  John Jay: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty--as well as the privilege and interest--of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

  To claim that we owe the Constitution to Deism is simply not true. . Of the 55 Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution 52 were members of Christian churches. See David Barton, The Myth of Separation (Aledo, TX: WallBuilder Press, 1991), pp. 22-25. Quoting from M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company (NH: Plymouth Rock Foundation 1982), Table of Contents.
• 

  Love_Truth

  logansrun,

  I agree with your essay. Well researched and well written. As to some of the responses, I would add the following for some additional perspective:

  While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender
  their liberties to the first external or internal invader. If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security.
  -Samuel Adams
  
  To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian.
  -George Washington
  
  It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists [pluralism], but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!
  -Patrick Henry
  
  Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof
  -Inscription on the Liberty Bell, from Leviticus 25:10

  I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probably that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.
  -Ben Franklin, to the Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787
  
  We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
  -John Adams
  
  Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man towards God.
  -Governeur Morris
  Pennsylvania delegate to the Constitutional Convention
  
  Statesmen, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.
  -John Adams
  
  The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.-John Quincy Adams
  
  Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
  -Patrick Henry
  
  A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society? The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.
  -Abigail Adams
  
  The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion.-Noah Webster
  
  If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, error will be; If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendancy; If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will; If the power of the Gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of the land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end.
  -Daniel Webster
  
  True Godliness doesn't turn men out of the World, but enables them to live better in it, and excites their endeavors to mend it.
  -William Penn
  
  
  Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that they are a gift of God? Indeed, I tremble for my countrymen, when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
  -Thomas Jefferson
  
  We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us! It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves_to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.
  -Abraham Lincoln
• 

  Hyghlandyr

  Your statements and claim truly "begs the question:" What is the difference between "Modern Right Wing" Religion and those systems of belief during the Founding Father's day? Are you implying that the Fathers would agree with Same Sex Marrage? Banning Prayer in School? Abortions on demand (and funded with Tax payers money)?

  I will define what I mean by right wing christians...Those that view any others of any faith system, including other christians, who hold to dogmas or doctrines or beliefs or morals, even slightly different than there own as false worshippers, tools of the devil, etc.

  I have implied nothing. I have stated exactly what I meant. As far as the agenda, I didnt create this thread I merely responded to it. Nor did I claim that the founding fathers were not christian. I merely claimed that a handful were deists. In claiming that they are different from christians today, that is to say a very small minority who make enough noise to appear as a majority, I mean only to state what I said a moment ago, that there are those today that believe that anyone who doesnt follow their path is false. Even other christians.
• 

  Hyghlandyr

  Love truth

  Thanks for your quotes. I will state again that there are those that were deists and those that were not.

  As to my comments about the principles not being based on the bible, and further more specifically most certainly not being based on any portion of the mosaic law, including but not limited to the ten commandments, I make the statement for this reason. The codes in the bible are harsh and certainly do not anywhere promote a republic. This does not mean however that certain statements in our early years to the present have not so declared, believing or rejecting that notion internaly but verballizing it for the benefit of others.

  If someone can show me a republic in the bible, or the ideals of the constitution in the bible I'd be all for it. Maybe it is in the missing books of the catholic or orthodoxed bibles. While it is true that certain things that are illegal in the bible are also illegal now, other things are not. As is true of times past. But thankfully most of our laws are not lifted from the Torah. Ideals however, such as forgivness, well despite the vehement declarations of early founding fathers and those present now, these ideals are in no wise unique to christianity. Nothing about christianity is unique. Quite simply, every doctrine, every dogma, every moral, every law, every ideal, every concept in christianity is preexistent in others religions around the world. No I do not declare that all of these concepts exist in all religions. Merely that every one of them exists inother religions, and a great many of them exist in a great many religions.
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  Satanus

  It appears that, while the founding fathers were dieists, they did not wish to offend the fundies of their day, so some of them paid lip service to the rabid churchlings. This allowed them to build a nonreligious foundation for the country. It's doubtful that the majority of the citizens were right wing fundamentalists, but there were many influential ones, as there are today. You could say that the founders took a middle road, resisting the fanatics, while not hindering them, yet keeping religion out of the articles of the constitution.

  SS
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  Hyghlandyr

  Saint Satan, my idea exactly.

  While there have been posts of quotes from the founding fathers, Franklin and Jefferson included, that admonish christianity, there have also been quotes from these very same men posted attacking christianity. So those that pasted the quotes wherein these men admired christianity, are left with what answer as to the quotes again by those same men lambasting christianity?
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  Panda

  SaintSatan, Well put! So people don't change! Thank you...
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  Satanus

  Thichi

  "Organic law" sounds like a lawyer's invention in order to enable the judicial branch (the courts) to attempt an end run around the constitution.

  SS
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  Hyghlandyr

  SS, Yeah I loved the term "organic law." It is just another way of saying divine right of kings. The idea that something is law because the gods or god have so declared it. How about this for a thought, we have freedom or laws or rights because we decided that they should thus be so.
• 

  little witch

  Logansrun,

  Congratulations on a well-written and thoughtful essay. I do hope you got an excellent mark. I am quite impressed with your skills. And now a word from witchy.

  We must take this all in context. In light of how things were in the time the Bill Of Rights, and The Constitution were written, as well as when the amendments were written.

  We must address the WHY'S of it all.

  For example, the pilgrims who were the hard core settlers came here for cultish reasons. They were of strange offshoot religious persuasions and were under attack in their own countries. The biggest reason to come here originally was to make thier own rules, and not be bound by the confines of others. They were seeking a place wild and virgin, to carry on their unusual religious beliefs.

  Secondly, they were seeking prosperity. Most of Europe was quite unkind and oppressive to the less than well to do. Many at that time wanted land free for the taking and a chance to improve thier lots.

  Evidently this notion caught on, as many of the original colonies were founded by religious types, Quakers in Pennsylvania, Anabaptist in Maryland, The Puritans established in Massachusettes, etc.

  Soon because of many factors, the need arose to self-govern. Mostly because of greed and need across the pond. So how to convince and appease these religiously opposing (albeit all "christian") colonies to band together for the greater cause?

  Herein lies the beauty and genious of our beloved Bill Of Rights, and Constitution. It did not come easily. There were sticking points that had to be hashed out. Each colony feared their religious identity would be endangered. Each feared economic loss. How would contracts between the colonies and with England be honored?

  Religion and money...Same old story, they make the world go round. I suppose that faced with the realities, taking a few bruises felt reasonable as compared to writting off as a total loss the effort and sacrifice already given and so after much strife, a consensus was arrived at.

  Most of the "rank and file" new citezens were christian of some sort. Thus the ambiguity in those writings, alluding to but not defining god. Our poor founding fathers needed a median, and I believe they found one. They seperated at that time not church and state, but state and federal. The whole Federal idea was the biggest fear to be alieviated. In doing so, the framework tried to appease the masses by pointing to political,economical, and social ideas. The greater good if you will.

  Looking back, I am quite impressed with them, for what they managed to accomplish given the circumstances. They created a darn good framework which is still built upon today these 200 plus years later.

  America is a work in progress. Not perfected, but open to it's citezens for change and betterment. It seems the founding fathers were wise in looking through history in an attempt to avoid the mistakes of other governments and theocracies.

  I am so proud of my country and her accomplishments in such a short time. I have yet to see a better method of govenment than democracy, and I hope the world continues to evolve in similar ways.

  Well, I could go on and on, but I will spare you. I do so enjoy topics on history, especially when they are informative and well written. Thanks for the interesting post Logansrun, Thi-CHi and others.