Did Noah really build an ark?

by frogit 67 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  hooberus

  Flood legends older than the bible is that little stickler though.....isn't it?

  Gumby

  Flood legends which preceded the recorded biblical record (by Moses) are actually quite compatible with a biblical world-view.

  http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-285.htm Conclusions

  From the early days of the comparative study of these two flood accounts, it has been generally agreed that there is an obvious relationship. The widespread nature of flood traditions throughout the entire human race is excellent evidence for the existence of a great flood from a legal/historical point of view.20 Dating of the oldest fragments of the Gilgamesh account originally indicated that it was older than the assumed dating of Genesis.21 However, the probability exists that the Biblical account had been preserved either as an oral tradition, or in written form handed down from Noah, through the patriarchs and eventually to Moses, thereby making it actually older than the Sumerian accounts which were restatements (with alterations) to the original.

  A popular theory, proposed by liberal "scholars," said that the Hebrews "borrowed" from the Babylonians, but no conclusive proof has ever been offered.22 The differences, including religious, ethical, and sheer quantity of details, make it unlikely that the Biblical account was dependent on any extant source from the Sumerian traditions. This still does not stop these liberal and secular scholars from advocating such a theory. The most accepted theory among evangelicals is that both have one common source, predating all the Sumerian forms.23 The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version. Indeed the Hebrews were known for handing down their records and tradition.24 The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological. The One-source Theory must, therefore, lead back to the historical event of the Flood and Noah's Ark.25 To those who believe in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, it should not be a surprise that God would preserve the true account of the Flood in the traditions of His people. The Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses.26 The Epic of Gilgamesh, then, contains the corrupted account as preserved and embellished by peoples who did not follow the God of the Hebrews.
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  gumby

  Hooberus,

  Thanks for your input here. I did a little research my self upon reading this post concerning flood legends that exist/existed in many cultures and various times. Believers say this all comes from one source....the bible. They believe that out of ALL these flood stories that have many similarities......the bible is the correct one. I'd like to ask you WHY and HOW the bible is the correct one?

  Here is part of the info. you just supplied. Notice the reasoniong as to WHY the bible is the correct story.

  .......................My smartass comments are in red.

  1.The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version. (duh)

  2.Indeed the Hebrews were known for handing down their records and tradition.( so were most civilizations)

  3. The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological. (did that just say......."for the most part")

  4.The One-source Theory must, therefore, lead back to the historical event of the Flood and Noah's Ark. (why?)

  5.To those who believe in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, it should not be a surprise that God would preserve the true account of the Flood in the traditions of His people.( see #1)

  6.The Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses( how exactly was this done?)

  As you can see....the arguments were weak. If there was a flood of some sort.....why are we to believe the bible as the "true story"? Also, your article says Gilgamesh is thought of by many scholars as proof that even the babylonians also recorded and knew of the bible flood.......then they say the bible flood story is a true story, and gilgamesh was a myth. Which is it? Was gilgamesh a myth, or true recorded history?

  Gumby
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  hooberus

  Thanks for your input here. I did a little research my self upon reading this post concerning flood legends that exist/existed in many cultures and various times. Believers say this all comes from one source....the bible.

  I would rephrase this to "Believers say this all comes from one source....the actual flood"

  They believe that out of ALL these flood stories that have many similarities......the bible is the correct one. I'd like to ask you WHY and HOW the bible is the correct one?

  While there are similarities between the biblical account and the pagan accounts the fact remains that there are also vast differences:

  The Genesis account allows for enough time to build the ark. The Genesis ark would have been very stable (due to proper dimensions) than the pagan arks. The pagan accounts read like wild mythologies (indicating obvious embellishment over time) whereas the genesis account reads like a actual ships log. The pagan arks landed on nearby sacred mountains in the cultures of flood stories, whereas the Genesis ark was said to have landed on a specific distant mountain from Isreal. The locaton of Mt. Ararat is in the area where encyclopedias state to be from where the modern village farming way of life came from (and then spread from over the old world). Ther is also some secular/ historical evidence (such as the names of countries and cities) that the modern peoples descended from the sons of Noah.
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  gumby

  The locaton of Mt. Ararat is in the area where encyclopedias state to be from where the modern village farming way of life came from (and then spread from over the old world).

  This is an intresting thought if it be for real.

  The rest of what you stated however............

  Mythologists are different than monotheists in their writings. The christians also literalized what the gnostics believed before them as you already have heard many say. For the hebrews to make a literal story from a mythological story, is no PROOF that the hebrew story is the real one........if a real one existed at all.

  What I find hard to swallow is how the christians can believe that the noah flood story could have spread to all areas of the planet....verbally.......made a huge impact to the point of these civilizations writing all this down and recording the flood story......only botching it up.............then being called a pagan because they botched the story up. Doesn't make sense.

  Gumby
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  hooberus

  This is an intresting thought if it be for real.

  If you like I'll provide a reference. I copied it from an encyclopedia at our library.
  

  For the hebrews to make a literal story from a mythological story, is no PROOF that the hebrew story is the real one........if a real one existed at all.

  I don't believe that the hebrews made a literal story from a mythological one. In fact I don't believe that the Hebrews used the mythological flood stories at all.

  What I find hard to swallow is how the christians can believe that the noah flood story could have spread to all areas of the planet....verbally.......made a huge impact to the point of these civilizations writing all this down and recording the flood story......only botching it up.............then being called a pagan because they botched the story up. Doesn't make sense.

  The pagan flood accounts are called "pagan" because of their polytheism.

  The many diverse accounts even among new world indians far removed from the mideast is consistent with an actual flood..

  The below link discusses creation/ flood legends among the american indians (the tower of babel section is particularily interesting):

  http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-369.htm
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  funkyderek

  Gumby, there's really no point arguing with hooberus using things like "evidence" and "reason".

  Even though the Gilgamesh epic is far older than the Noachian one, and that it dates to a time Biblical chronology would place probably within Noah's lifetime hooberus will always fall back to his presupposed position that:

  The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version.
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  gumby

  Hooberus,

  As I have pointed out and FD pointed out......the Gilgamesh account being about the time of Noah.... raises some questions. What is your opinion?

  Let's suppose a small group....say 7-8 people, tell a story to their kids, and those kids tell their kids and friends and so on. Let's say it's the flood story. Does it seem possible to you that this story would become popular enough and believable enough, that hundreds of generations of people living in various parts of the earth at different times, would take the time to write history concerning it and preserving it?

  *gumby seems to forget that christianity had it's start the way he just explained, and that story survived*

  Hooberus. Please provide the link you mentioned concerning Mt. Ararat and the thought that civilization sprang from there.

  Gumbastard
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  Abaddon

  Forget the ark; just literalist Biblical apologetics doing the shell routine.

  Why bother having yourself constantly made to look like you believe in fairy tales during scientific discussions regarding the Flood when you can refuse to really enagage with the lack of evidence and impossibility (given stuff, like, you know, physics) of the Flood and distract people from the lack of evidence for a Global Flood in discussions about whether Noah could build an Ark (for a Flood that didn't happen), or whether the Jews stole their mythos of another bunch of people who probably stole their mythos off another culture, who may have been the people who were around when it rained a lot and people drowned, but not all of them?

  FunkyD is right; the facts don't really matter to hooberus, he believes it because he wants to, regardless of facts, QED, it's just he gets all gittery over having to accept his belief in the literal Flood and Creation is an act of faith and not a result of proof.

  I thought faith was what it was meant to be about, so not having enough to stand up and simply say 'I believe' is a pity...
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  Crazy151drinker

  You mean Paul and the Blue Ox are fake???
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  hooberus

  Hooberus. Please provide the link you mentioned concerning Mt. Ararat and the thought that civilization sprang from there.

  The information is found in an encyclopedia arcticle. The arcticle has illustrations of the village farming way of life and how it spread abroad from the area north of Iraq. While this does not necessarily prove thae ark account, the fact remains that the spead of modern civilization in secular sources in consistent with the Biblical account of civilization spreading from the vicinity of the ark.