Monkey's and Atheists

by IronGland 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    Thomas Huxley ("Darwin's bulldog") is said to have come up with the most famous defense of the atheist belief that life was created by chance, not God. In a debate at Oxford, he is reported to have stated that if enough monkeys randomly pressed typewriter keys for a long enough time, sooner or later Psalm 23 would emerge.

    Not all atheists use this argument, but it accurately represents the atheist belief that with enough time and enough solar systems, you'll get you, me, and Bach's cello suites.

    This belief has always struck me as implausible. The argument that infinitely complex intelligence came about by itself, unguided by any intelligence, can only be deemed convincing by those who have a vested interest (intellectual, emotional, psychological) in atheism.

    I fully acknowledge the great challenge to theism -- the rampant and seemingly random unfairness built into human life. But no intellectually honest atheist should deny the great challenge to atheism -- the existence of design and intelligence. The belief that Bach's music randomly evolved from a paramecium should strike anyone as so fantastic as to be absurd, even more absurd than the belief that a monkey could monkey Shakespeare. The finite number of years in the universe's existence and the finite number of planets would not come close to producing a few sentences, let alone Psalm 23 or a Shakespeare play.

    But a just reported English University experiment has convinced me that the number of monkeys and the amount of time are irrelevant. Psalm 23, let alone Hamlet, would never be written. Why? Because the monkeys probably wouldn't do any typing.

    According to news reports, instructors at Plymouth University put six Sulawesi crested macaque monkeys in a room with a computer and keyboards for four weeks. Though one of the monkeys frequently typed the letter "s", the other monkeys ignored the keyboard, preferring to play with one another and with the ropes and toys placed there. When they did pay attention to the keyboard, one smashed it with a stone and the others repeatedly urinated and defecated on it.

    The instructors hastened to note the study was not scientific, given the short duration of time and the small number of monkeys, but some of us find this "study" to be a hilarious vindication of our view of the "enough monkeys for enough time" argument for random creation.

    According to the science correspondent of Britain's Guardian newspaper, "assuming each monkey typed a steady 120 characters a minute (itself a preposterous assumption), mathematicians have calculated it would take 10 to the 813th power (10 followed by 813 zeros) monkeys about five years to knock out a decent version of Shakespeare's Sonnet 3 . . . "

    To put 10 to the 813th power into perspective, remember that a billion is 10 to the ninth power.

    There are many intellectually honest atheists, and there are many intellectually dishonest believers in God.

    Nevertheless, I believe that any objective person would have to conclude that the belief that everything came about by itself and that randomness is the creator is infinitely less intellectually sound than the belief in a Creator/Designer.

    Sadly, many people come to doubt God's existence because so many intellectuals are atheists. But it was a major scientist, Professor Robert Jastrow, one of the greatest living astronomers, head of the Mount Wilson Observatory, formerly head of NASA's Goddard Space Center, and an agnostic, who best explained the atheism of many scientists.

    In his book God and the Astronomers, Jastrow tells of his surprise when so many fellow astronomers refused to accept the Big Bang hypothesis for the origins of the universe. In fact, Jastrow writes, many astronomers were actually unhappy about it. Why? Because the Big Bang implied a beginning to the universe, and a beginning implies a Creator, something many scientists passionately reject.

    This led Jastrow to the sobering conclusion that many scientists have vested, non-scientific interests in some of their beliefs, especially the non-existence of God. For some psychological or emotional reasons, not intellectual ones, many scientists prefer to believe that given enough monkeys, one will type out a psalm.

    But neither math nor science argues that all came about randomly, without a Creator. Only a keen desire to deny God explains such a belief, a belief that should be laid to rest beneath a large pile of monkey doo-doo at Plymouth University, England.

    -Dennis Prager,respected radio talk show host

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    The above essay seems reasonable. Many people seem to come to the creation/evolution theory with their minds made up. The outcome of the rightness of their "side" is certain, and any evidence which supports the other side is pooh-poohed.

    The intellectual dishonesty of many creationism advocates (including some writers at the WT Society) does not either prove or disprove creation, any more than the college degrees hanging on the walls of prominent scientific evolutionists would either prove or disprove evolution.

    For what it's worth, I think a Creator got everything rolling. However he seems to currently be much more interested in other projects than he is in dealing with (or "intervening" in WTS terms) with humankind here on earth.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    IronGland said:

    : The argument that infinitely complex intelligence came about by itself, unguided by any intelligence, can only be deemed convincing by those who have a vested interest (intellectual, emotional, psychological) in atheism.

    I'm sure you don't realize that this argument is totally self-defeating. Whatever Creator you suppose, which in the Western world is almost always the Christian God, must of necessity be an "infinitely complex intelligence" that "came about by itself, unguided by any intelligence", since if it didn't, it would in turn need a superior Creator. This immediately turns into an infinite regression of Creators -- which obviously defeats your argument since you postulate a unique original Creator.

    "Oh, but God has always existed!" you say. Well that solves nothing at all, since if you allow for this, you must logically allow that in an infinity of time and space, or macro-time and macro-space (meaning all that ever existed whether in our particular Einsteinian space-time or not, including whatever "abode" you assign to your Creator), everything possible -- no matter how improbable a priori -- must occur. And of course if you exclude God from your "argument from design", then you're engaging in pure special pleading.

    Thus we understand that your comment can easily be turned on its head:

    The argument that infinitely complex intelligence always existed, or came about by itself, unguided by any intelligence, can only be deemed convincing by those who have a vested interest (intellectual, emotional, psychological) in theism.

    AlanF

  • gumby
    gumby
    The argument that infinitely complex intelligence always existed, or came about by itself, unguided by any intelligence, can only be deemed convincing by those who have a vested interest (intellectual, emotional, psychological) in theism.

    A "creator" would be more believable if boundries such as those in bold type were not insisted upon.

    Gumby

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    IG

    The typing monkeys test is a red herring. It assumes that they should be able to produce literature directly, while evolution suggests no such thing. If you leave a bunch of monkeys together long enough, eventually, what will be produced, is other monkeys. This, of course, agrees w evolutionary theory. Evolution suggests that, in times past, there was enough mutation going on over an indefinite number of generations that, some monkeys evolved in the human direction. Mutations have been demonstrated, and our dna has been shown to be very close to that of some monkeys.

    Then, it is humans who start typing literature. So, the test is for the wrong thing entirely. Of course it will fail.

    Another thing, scientists say evolution goes in fits and starts. It may not be progressing at this time as it did in the past. However, it could still be in process on other levels.

    SS

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    AlanF said:

    IronGland said:

    : The argument that infinitely complex intelligence came about by itself, unguided by any intelligence, can only be deemed convincing by those who have a vested interest (intellectual, emotional, psychological) in atheism.

    I didn't say it, Dennis Prager said it.

    I'm sure you don't realize that this argument is totally self-defeating.

    I realise it.

    SaintSatan:

    The typing monkeys test is a red herring.

    Yes. I posted the article because I felt some might find it amusing.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    IG

    It's true, your sense of humor is very dry, a bit like mine

    SS

  • IronGland
    IronGland

    Heh.

    Yeah, Mr. Prager, a "nationally respected radio talk show host and columnist" is a hoot. He found God at Columbia University because his professors were Marxist and dumb and he read that the bible says 'wisdom begins with God'. Athesim, Feminism and Breastfeeding in public(a 3 part series) are going ot doom our great nation

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    ""I'm sure you don't realize that this argument is totally self-defeating""

    Yea, what?s wrong with you? The Monkey Theory requires little or no faith to base our facts on!!!

    Applying AlanF?s standards, the Monkey Theory falls on its face too. It proves nothing.

    The reality is the elites cannot disprove the non-existence of God, and it drives them up the wall. The double standards of reason and proof have made some delusional on this issue.

    "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi IG,

    Just a quick note about the typing monkeys. Actually, the typing monkeys theory can be demonstrated by computer in 43 generations to produce a sentence. This is IF the computer approximates what nature does with nonrandom natural selection. That is the unintelligent guiding force in nature. This experiment is given by Richard Dawkins in his book The Blind Watchmaker.

    The way it goes to imitate nature is that there is an over-riding feature that holds out what works better. As with mutations, the one out of ever so many mutations that confers a benefit will be repeated by giving the organism an advantage to live and reproduce.

    To stick the "monkeys in with typewriters" without having a natural selection process going isn't duplicating nature.

    PBS did something similar with the production of sight using computers simulating nature. It took less time than previously believed to produce sight when the computer followed the "rule" of nonrandom natural selection: whatever works better for the organism is preserved by allowing it to reproduce more than the fellow without the mutation.

    Of course, the mutations that are harmful make the organism die more often without reproducing. That's how nonrandom natural selection works and is the over-riding force in evolution.

    Professor Dawkins tells of this on pages 48-50 of his book.

    Pat

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit