A question for bible scholars.....It's a REAL hard one!

by gumby 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Well, for starters, theophoric elements like -el or -yahu appear mainly on verbal and adjectival hosts, also commonly on nominal ones, and it is quite rare when two DNs occur in a possessive relation. But you just don't get three DNs concatenated together without any possessive or other semantic relation. What is "Israel" supposed to mean, after all? "El is Re is Isis"? Or "Isis' Re's El"? It is nonsensical. Look at all the PNs in the OT and throughout ANE literature. Some examples with theophoric elements:

    Marduk-epiri "Marduk fosters me," Dio-trephes "Nurtured by Zeus", Aper-el "Fostered by El," Apra-baal "Fostered by Baal," Hayab-ilu "Where is Father El?", Sakar-il "El has Favored," Ummi-balat "Balat is Mother", Ummi-Ishtar "Ishtar is Mother", Aduna-Addu "Adad is Lord", Rim-Addu "Wild-bull of Adad", Anat-umma "Anat is Mother", Shapshi-abi "Shapsh is Father", Bali-erah "Yerih is Lord", Ya-'qub-el "El protects", Ya-'qub-har "Horus (?) protects", Shaddai-'or "Shaddai Shines", Apollo-genes "Beget by Apollo," Dio-dorus "Gift of Zeus," El-natan "Gift of El," Yeho-natan "Gift of Yahweh," Jerubbaal "Established by Baal," Jeru-salem "Established by Shalem", Eli-sama "El Hears," Eli-melek "El is King", Yeho-el "Yahweh is El", Eli-ezer "El helps", Ishma-el "El Hears," Yer-baal "Baal Contends," Peni-el "Face of El," Qaws-natan "Gift of Qaws", Qaws-gabri "Qaws is Mighty", Neri-yahu "Yahweh is my Lamp," Berek-yahu "Yahweh has Blessed", Yerahme-el "May El be Merciful", Hanan-yahu "Yahweh is Gracious", Baal-hanan "Baal is Gracious", Azar-yahu "Yahweh Helps", Gedel-yahu "Yahweh is Great", Zehar-yahu "Yahweh Remembers", Pela-yahu "Yahweh is Wondrous", Mattit-yahu "Gift of Yahweh", Milkom-or "Milkom Shines", El-yasha "El has Saved", Baal-yasha "Baal has Saved", Yahzi-baal "May Baal See", Abd-Ilib "Servant of Ibid", Zidqi-yahu "Yahweh Vindicates", Sin-uballit "Sin Gives Life", Nabu-naid "Nabu is Exalted", Nabu-apla-usur "May Nabu Help the Son", Weser-Anat "Anat is Powerful", Sebek-emsaf "Sobek is Protection", Sekhem-re "Re is Powerful", Seqenen-re "Strikes Like Re", Amen-hotep "Amun is Satisfied", Thut-mose "Born of Thoth", Nebmaat-re "Re Loves Truth", Akhen-aten "Servant of Aten", Tutankh-amun "Living Image of Amun", Hor-emheb "Horus is Jubilant", Ra-messes "Born of Re", Menmaat-re "Eternal Justice of Re", Meri-amun "Beloved of Amun", etc.

    In Isis-Re-El, there is no predicate and neither is there a possessive relation. And I have yet to see an instance of three DNs in a single PN or GN (geographical name). I think what you have in mind is a basic conjunction of the three names concatenated together. But there is indeed special syntax for linking DNs together without a predicative relation: the conjunction w- "and" is used. Thus we see examples in the Ugaritic and Eblaite literature such as Athtar-wa-Athtapir, Kothar-wa-Hasis, Yamm-wa-Nahar, Nidakul-wa-Besal, Resheph-wa-Adama, and Agu-wa-Guladu. On this basis we might expect Is-wa-re-wa-el, except I have never seen an instance of three names conjoined together, and neither do such conjoined DNs ever occur as toponyms or ethnonyms. The conjunction of two Egyptian DNs with a Semitic DN is also unusual.

    So without even looking at the evidence showing that Israel is a well-formed Semitic theophoric name from a normal verbal root, we can see how implausible the suggested meaning is. And I have looked at many reference works on the subject by well-esteemed philologists (cf. Skinner, Driver, etc.), and no one I know has suggested such a strange and unusual etymology of the name.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    My thoughts exactly...you took the words right out of my mouth....I almost feel violated by you Leolaia!

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    You are looking very sweet tonight Leolaia.

    Sorry, your theory is very convincing, but I like Gumby's answer best.

    Don't confuse me with the facts.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Any comment, Gumby? I hope that is what you wanted...

  • shotgun
  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Like I said don't be too hard on Gumby..his condition is my fault

    http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/Sylvester/ltsy_007.wav

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    I think Bry!!!is closer to the right answer than any of you folks:)

  • gumby
    gumby

    Mouthy......quit braggin on bry. I'm right and everyone else is wrong dammit.......ya hear me!!

    I read what Leolaia said......and as soon as I find out what half those words mean that she used on poor illiterate gumby.....I'm gonna tell her off!

    Leolaia, thanks for you effort here. You could be correct.....but I'm not too sure. One of the sources I got this info. from was from the book "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S. Whether she is literary competent and honest is another story. I will do some more looking myself and see what I can find.

    Gumby.....(it may take awhile)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The best interpretation may well be "El Strives", as the deity is usually conceived of as agentive unless the verb expresses subservience, worship, or similar concept (see the examples in my post above). There is a parallel in the third-millenium BC tablets from Ebla, where we encounter the PN Ishra-NI "NI Strives" (ARET 2:#28xvi:4), where "NI" is a Sumerogram standing in for the theophoric element. That NI can represent ilu "El" can be seen in the PN Mara-NI (ARET 2:109), which correponds to the Ugaritic name mr'l, cf. Mara-'el. Israel thus appears to have been well-formed Semitic name of some antiquity. It is of similar form as Ishma-el "El Hears," which is paralleled by the Eblaite Ishma-Damu "Damu Hears," and Ishma-Zikir "Zikir Hears" (ARET 3:287), which are also men's names.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    One of the sources I got this info. from was from the book "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S.

    Who is probably not a philologist. There is a lot of bad philology that gets passed around and taken as fact (cf. Zecharia Stitchen for another good example, and all the countless people trying to link Basque and Sumerian to some other language on the flimsiest of evidence). The example you gave sounds almost as far-fetched as those who interpret "British" to mean "Man of the Covenant" (< Heb. brt -'sh). I would strongly recommend consulting reference works on philology and PNs before accepting an etymology as fact, especially by a non-specialist. I doubt very much a professional philologist would find the strange explanation of "Israel" as acceptable.

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