The Iceman and the Flood

by Thirdson 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • Thirdson
    Thirdson

    A number of posts this week drew attention to the pseudo-science of the Watchtower organization. In recent years the WTS has not fared much better and clinging to fundamentalist ideas about the age of man, the idea that all of Genesis is true only causes problems and serious questions.

    I have previously posted thoughts on an archeological find and I thought I’d mention it again. The case was the 1991 discovery of the frozen corpse of an ancient man in the Italian Alps. (Ötztaler region on the Austrian/Italian border). This find was of tremendous scientific interest and was widely reported in the media, including serious science journals and several good TV documentaries were produced shown on “Horizon” on the BBC and “Nova” on PBS (WGBH Boston) in the USA.

    I read the Scientific American article and bought the book The Man in the Ice (Der Mann im Eis) by Konrad Spindler long before the Awake produced a front-page issue (May 8, 1995). So I read the Awake with interest as I knew the discovery posed some serious questions about life around 3000 BCE.

    As usual with WTS material none of the quotes give a source other than a name (no dates, editions or page numbers) which makes verifying the quotes hard. Several sources were used for the Awake article including National Geographic, Nature, Popular Science, Focus, Time, Archeo (Italy), and Der Mann Im Eis. The prehistoric man was found virtually intact. With him were his personal possessions, a bow, arrows and quiver, a backpack, leather bag, a copper ax and, cold weather clothing. His body was in a glacier at an altitude of 10,500 feet (3,200m).

    From the start the body was known to be old, very old. And here lies the problem: if he is too old, he is pre-flood by Bible chronology and that poses serious issues for the Watchtower belief system. How old was he according to the Awake. “He lived between 4,800 and 5,500 years ago” states the Awake quoting Audubon magazine. Why quote the official magazine of the Audubon Society (a society for the preservation of wildlife, mainly birds)? I think, because the dates were the widest and the most recent. Without a direct issue quote to verify I can’t say when the article was written but likely it was an early report on the discovery. Note though that the Awake quotes the book by Konrad Spindler and thus the writers had access to the full account including the way the dating was done. According to The Man in the Ice the Iceman lived about 5,200 to 5,300 years ago. (about 3,200 BCE) Pages 77-80. The Awake’s footnote refers to the inaccuracy of the carbon-14 dating method in order to cast doubt on the dates given. This is dishonest as the writer had access to the book The Man in the Ice. In the book Spindler relates that six separate laboratories from different countries produced dates from samples of the artifacts. They all had very similar results. In addition, the wooden artifacts were compared to dendrochronological records for comparison and verification of the carbon-14 and thus a great deal of certainty could be granted to the figures.

    The unsolved problem then, caused by an ancient man, found well preserved along with his tools and possessions, is he lived about 800 to 1000 years prior to the Biblical flood. (2,370BCE – Insight on the Scriptures page 459). He obviously was living in a cold climate, was in a high mountain, had leather clothes and had hunting equipment. The WTS teaches that prior to the flood the world had a generally warm climate, no rain or snow, no high mountains, and no need to hunt, kill and eat animals.

    In order to divert attention from these problems the Awake tries to show that the Bible commented on civilized people living in the “earliest” of times. The quotes from Genesis 4:20-22 relate to copper and iron working prior to the flood. Strange that the Bible names people who invented metal working as “founders” while these ones and their descendants apparently died in the flood (along with tent dwelling herders, and various musical instrument makers). While apparently their names were preserved some of these talents died out for millennia, as did iron working which did not start until around 1,500 BCE with the Hittites and was something the Israelites wouldn’t be good at for a long time after then (Note: 1Samuel 13:19-22). But even saying that the Man in the Ice by era was compatible with the Bible’s statements does not answer the question as to why a man obviously living in the same world as we live in predated the Biblical flood by a 1000 years.

    It was one of those fudge articles, generally put together by quoting from well known reputable magazines, but avoided the real issue and tried to show the Bible was right all along when in fact it causes great difficulties for those who cling to the short history of man in a post-deluvian world.

    The article ends with its own speculation. Although the surprise find was the copper ax that the Ice Man carried, the Awake concludes regarding the discovery “it has nonetheless enabled us to gain some insight into the world in which he lived—a complex world, very different from the usual image of so-called prehistoric times. It was much more modern than many believe.”

    That may or may not be a true conclusion to draw from a single find based on the artwork of his possessions. It doesn’t answer the question as to how snow covered Alps existed a thousand years before the flood.

    Thirdson

    'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

    Corrected a 5000 BCE to 3000 BCE, inserted the word "ago".

  • terraly
    terraly

    Change the names of the characters in the flood story and every JW and fundamentalist on the planet would dismiss it as an amusing story and wildly inaccurate fantasy.

    But put in with a collection of other Jewish works which happens to be traditionally associated with their faith in some way and they'd deny the presence of their hand in front of their face if they needed to in order to cling to their just-so story.

  • ISP
    ISP

    Thanks Thirdson, interesting stuff! I was reading about the history of glass and was surprised how long ago it was used! The Romans used it their buildings including some structures in the UK. BUT it was only the 16-17 C. that dwellings in the UK got glass in windows! Like it took a while to catch on........but now you get the full hit. Like double glazing.......making up for lost time!

    ISP

  • hippikon
    hippikon

    Good Read - thanks

  • Cautious
    Cautious

    Good post Thirdson

    It reminds me of something we discovered for ourselves and the WTS with regards to their manner of quoting. We decided to check the references in the "creation" book. Some were direct misquotes and one direct quote which about C14 dating which they proceeded to twist 180 degrees. That was the point at which my husband decided he had had enough of the WTS.

    Cautious

  • Cautious
    Cautious

    Good post Thirdson

    It reminds me of something we discovered for ourselves and the WTS with regards to their manner of quoting. We decided to check the references in the "creation" book. Some were direct misquotes and one direct quote which about C14 dating which they proceeded to twist 180 degrees. That was the point at which my husband decided he had had enough of the WTS.

    Cautious

  • Francois
    Francois

    Very good information, good read. Many thanks.

    I haven't been keeping up with the Borg for these last 25 years or so in any detail. I remember that even back then they attacked out-of-date problems with C14 dating. That is, they brought up issues with it and negative comments about it that were no longer current, having been resolved by advances in the technique. But of course it's easier to attack out of date information.

    So, with regard to the iceman and the dating of his life, are the JWs still using their standard objections to C14; objections to problems that no longer exist in the technique?

    Francois

    My $0.02

  • Prisca
    Prisca
    are the JWs still using their standard objections to C14; objections to problems that no longer exist in the technique?

    Yes they are. If they did acknowledge that C14 was Ok, then it would blow out all their their theories about how life was in pre-Biblical times.

    I tried reasoning with my staunch JW fleshky sister on something once, she just resorted to the Creation book's (the blue one) stand that C14 was inaccurate. No matter what I said, she wouldn't discuss it, as "those scientists just aren't interested in supporting the Bible".

    Sigh....

  • Thirdson
    Thirdson

    Francoise,

    are the JWs still using their standard objections to C14; objections to problems that no longer exist in the technique?

    Yes, at least they still were in the mid-90's. The "Ice Man" article's footnotes (page 6 and BTW the only place page references are made, and the publisher is acknowledeged) refers to an Awake of 9/22/86 and the "Creation" book which happen to be WTS writings. The "Creation" book is itself dishonest in the extreme as mentioned by Cautious above.

    Thirdson

    'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Discovering that the flood was just a myth was a turning point for me back in 1986. I remember reading some issues of Science magazine that dealt with the frozen mammoths.

    They were adapted to a cold climate - wooly & extra fat layer.
    They were found with tundra grasses in their stomachs - same flora that exists now.
    They were found in frozen river bottoms - probably fell through the ice.
    The meat was NOT fresh. Even the dogs wouldn't touch it.

    I laid on the floor crying - with heaving sobs - things would never be the same again.

    During the 1960's and 1970's real scientists ignored "creation scientists". But then the CS started to push a political agenda. The scientific community came out with their big guns and started to talk in the common mans language about the facts of evolution etc.
    The Watchtower has never addressed the very latest information that proves evolution.

    Good Post. I remember the Ice-Man Awake. Why did they even attempt to deal with that?

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