Disagreeing With God's Representative

by Euphemism 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OHappyDay
    OHappyDay

    Sorry you feel bummed out at Christianity, Eu. Personally, I'm not ready to give up on Jesus just because one organization has misrepresented him. Or even if we assume that many organizations misrepresent him. I find something in Jesus worthy of my continued allegiance.

    But as for the Society, it is to its shame that it stifles all intelligent thought, that it demands acceptance of 'the full range of WT teachings.' This it does even for speculative things for which there may be a number of valid interpretations.

    As much as I want to resist labeling Jehovah's Witnesses a cult, this mind control is surely a damning piece of evidence. And it's so unnecessary. What the Society does is no different from the enforced patriotism of making people salute the flag.

    I don't expect Christianity to be easy. But the binding of heavy loads to put on people -- the quirky restrictions, the regimentation, the flogging of slaves to "do more" as if our salvation depended on ourselves rather than on Christ -- this is not Christianity. This is an organization exalting itself as the Second Person of the Trinity.

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Ann, Big Tex... thanks for the kind words.

    OHappyDay... that's a great analogy with the Trinity.

    I wouldn't really describe myself as "bummed out" on Christianity; I just find that agnosticism is the position that makes the most intellectual sense to me. I value many of the ethical principles of both Christianity and Buddhism; but I believe that both Jesus and Buddha were just imperfect--albeit very wise--men.

    My good Christian friend AnnOMaly and I have debated the issue at some length, with no change in either of our positions.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Good points . I was one of those deemonized ones myself . The minute I said ," well that doesn't make sense to me ," I might as well have sprouted horns out of my head . Now I have way more knowlege of the org . than ever before so alot more of it doesn't make sense.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Hey Euphemism

    Have you noticed that when former dubs starts to think for themselves they tend to reach similar conclusions? I guess that's because real truth is consistent. Check out this thread - http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/3161/1.ashx - it's one of the first posts I made here over three years ago.

    Nic'

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Nico... another interesting example!

    I think that the whole history of Israel as told in the OT should definitely make any group think twice before claiming to be God's chosen people. (Or, as Tevye put it, "Why couldn't you choose someone else?")

  • crinklestein
    crinklestein
    So according to the Bible as understood by the Witnesses, a worshipper of Jehovah could be put to death for listening to "Jehovah's anointed representative" instead of his own reading of God's law.

    But at least you wouldn't be presumptuous in thinking you know better than the GB.

  • crinklestein
    crinklestein

    One of the meetings I had with the elders was when they were telling me to stop asking questions. I asked, "How does one learn truth if one doesn't ask questions?" There were alot of things said that I can't quite remember but I told them that I noticed alot of inconsistancies and one of those was how they say that you should not lean upon your own understanding of the Bible. You should believe what the Org tells you. They agreed with that.

    Then I said, "What did Rutherford do when he founded the Bible students?"

    "...What do you mean?"

    "Let's crack out the Proclaimer's book and see what Rutherford did when he formed The Bible Students." I found the book in the back room, scanned a bit and started reading from the bio of Rutherford which detailed how he was going from one religion to another and then decided to throw away all preconcieved beliefs that he had and decided to read the entire Bible as if reading it for the first time. As if he never heard of Christianity or God before. It, in fact, said that he came to his own conclusions on spiritual matters and found all the other religions to be wrong.

    After reading this I asked again, "So again, what did Rutherford do that you are asking me not to do?'

    "You're not supposed to rely on your own understanding?"

    "Then who'se is it that I'm supposed to rely on?"

    "The Organization's."

    "OK...and where did they get THEIR understanding from?"

    "Jehovah, of course!"

    "No, originally."

    "I don't follow."

    "They learned it from Rutherford. And how did he learn it?"

    "...."

    "By relying on his own understanding!"

    "That's different. He was being guided by God," they said.

    To which I said, "And how do you know I'm not? People said the same thing of Rutherford. They said he shouldn't do what he did, called him crazy. If this Org really is God's Org and those people were wrong then they weren't really a good judge of a person's spiritual status with God. Who's to say you're any better of a judge? But what you are telling me not to do is exactly what the founder of this religion did when he founded this religion! So if you're saying that doing that is WRONG then you are saying that this entire religion is WRONG!"

    They quickly changed the subject but I wouldn't let them. I told them "We aren't done discussing this topic yet. Answer my question!" I wasn't letting them push me around and I wasn't letting them weasle their way out without answering my questions. I demanded answers and they refused to answer them. That was when I told them, "You claim, as elders, that you were appointed this position directly by God. As such you are bound by His laws. One of those laws is to be a spiritual leader and to provide guidance. If a sheep gets lost it is your responsibility to find him and guide him back to the flock with love and care. So guide me. Help me. Help me understand the answers to these questions. If you chose to not answer my questions then you give me no choice but to rely on my own understanding. So what's it going to be? Shall I rely on your understandings...or mine?"

    The still refused to answer my questions. So I told them, "Then you FORCE me to rely on myself. You refuse to help me, to guide me. Therefore I find it impossible to rely on YOU. You have failed me through your inactions. Good day." And I walked out.

  • cyber-sista
    cyber-sista

    This is a great topic and something I have been thinking of lately. I was thinking about the Christian trained conscience and how we were always told that we should not do anything that would go against our conscience. But I did have a 20 trained christian conscience which was screaming at me in the end and telling me how wrong the Org was. Now I am being condemned for exercising my " Christian trained" conscience.

    Also thinking about this point...Remember how the WT was always bringing out Prophetic patterns and the Org would liken themselves to the nation of Israel...but remember how the nation of Israel fell into a great apostasy in the end. No that I believe any of this anymore, but if I did the WT Org appears to be following the pattern of that fallen spiritual nation--the pharasees and their burdensome rules that enslaved people etc, etc...

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hi Euph,

    Great thread and good argument!

    I got a kick out of the assnine reasoning of the brother who tried to answer your question to him.

    "So what should a brother do if he conscientiously believes that some teaching of the organization is unbiblical, and he cannot support it?" The elder's response: "I don't think he can presume to know better than the organization."

    Yes....that makes so much more sense ...doesn't it? An Organisation that doesn't even know you exist(except on paper)....is a better judge of what Euphanism truely believes in his own heart and mind. The only difference in actuality betwwen David Koresh religion and the Organisation.......is one had a single leader, and the other has around a dozen or so. In both groups.....the leaders equal god.

    Gumby

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