Favorite oxymorons:
Arab Unity
Christian Rock
Military Justice
Black power
and now.....
"invisible presence"
metatron
Dishonest WTS version of "Presence"
by Amazing1914 16 Replies latest jw friends
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barry
Thanks Amazing and Alan for this great thread, when I studied with the witnesses I made no sense of there teaching at all. As Metatron has said Jesus says he is present with us to the end of the age in Matthew.
The scripture the witnesses couldnt explain to me is.
1 Thessalonians 4- 13 to 18
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We beleive that Jesus died and rose again and so we beleive that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven. with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. NIV version
1 Doesnt sound like the writer is trying to convey invisibility to me.
2 It says that the living who are on earth at the time of of the second coming will be caught up with the resurrected ones together.
3 Scolar did these events take place in 1914?
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RunningMan
Oh, Barry, I hope you are sitting down for this. Here is the official WT explanation of that scripture":
JWs believe that the Bible was written only to the anointed (the 144,000). These ones, and only these ones, are going to heaven to be kings and priests. There has been an unbroken line of these ones since the days of Jesus. When these ones died, they stayed dead until Jesus presence began in 1914 (or 1918, I can never keep it straight). On that day, all of the 144,000 who died were resurrected to heaven. Those who die after 1914, but before armageddon, will be resurrected to heaven at the moment of death. When armageddon strikes (ie, Jesus coming) there will be some still on earth. They will be called to heaven at that time. Here is how the scripture parses out:
"we beleive that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him"
Note the words "in him". Only the 144,000 are "in him". These ones will be resurrected to a heavenly life - but only those ones.
"and the dead in Christ will rise first"
This means that those of the 144,000 who die before 1914 will be resurrected to their heavenly life immediately upon Jesus calling them (in 1914 or 1918, or something like that)Those of the 144,000 who die after 1914, but before armageddon, will be raised to heaven as soon as they die.
"we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"
Any of the 144,000 who are still alive at armageddon, will be raised to heaven at that time.
we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep
As mentioned above, if any of the 144,000 are still alive when Jesus comes (not in 1914, 'cause that is when he is present, he comes later on) will not be raised until armageddon, whereas those who have already died will have been raised, either in 1914 or at the moment of death.
Simple.
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xjw_b12
AlanF Is Scholar your alter ego??
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AlanF
xjw_b12 said:
: AlanF Is Scholar your alter ego??
You mean, am I pretending to be "scholar" in order to make the JWs look bad?
No, I could never be that clever. Anyway, it'd be guilding the lily. They need no outside help to make themselves look stupid.
AlanF
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BluesBrother
there is not a lot said about the current teaching about the final manifestation of Jesus Christ, In Wt teaching. this is almost akin to th churches who believe a Rapture at the end of the days.
As I understand the WT teaching to be, Christ returned invisibly in 1914 and has had his Parousia since then. At the Battle of Armageddon, however , Matt 24 ; 30 is fulfilled in a literal way
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w99 5/1 p. 13 "These Things Must Take Place" ***19
Note that Matthew 24:29-31 foretells that (1) the Son of man comes, (2) this coming will be with great glory, (3) the angels will be with him, and (4) all the tribes of the earth will see him. Jesus repeats these elements in the parable of the sheep and the goats. (Matthew 25:31-46) Hence, we can conclude that this parable deals with the time, after the opening outbreak of tribulation, when Jesus will come with his angels and sit down on his throne to judge. (John 5:22; Acts 17:31; compare 1 Kings 7:7; Daniel 7:10, 13, 14, 22, 26; Matthew 19:28.) Who will be judged, and with what result? The parable shows that Jesus will give attention to all nations, as if they were assembled right before his celestial throne
.All judging takes place then, not now. The sheep are herded into paradise and the rest of us go to be birdfood and fertilzer
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Undaunted Danny
The CENTRAL CORE doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Watchtower IS the 1914 dogma. . All Faiths have a creed..For example: Catholics have Mary as the mother of God,and the trinity dogma. Mormons say Jesus came to America. Islamic creed is; Allah is God and Great, Mohammad is his prophet The Creed of the Watchtower IS 1914.. The BOGUS date was pilfered from the Millerite movement.... Zero hour for their math is 587 BC not 607 BC. The secular; History Channel say's so ! The charlatans can't even get the math straight. Oh, I was in since 1957, does anyone remember the "3 minute sermons"? The draft of the sermon, was on the "39 composite signs that Christ Jesus came to power in 1914". The entire doctrinal superstructure of the WT$ rest squarely on the 1914 Date. The Watchtower plagiarizing pirate ship was scuttled before it ever left the dock.. ! All hands abandon ship !