Help.

by family_man 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  family_man

  My wife is really starting to transition out of the WTS. This has been a happy time in both of our lives.

  While things have peaceful at home - her somewhat abrupt departure appears to have raised eyebrows with her 2 JW syblings. SO much so that they are starting to plant their own seeds of doubt into her head.

  Recently we had a birthday party for my daughter. A couple days later her sister began questioning her about what she felt would happen to her if Armegedon were to come today [I believe the mentioning of the b-day cake spurred this concern for her soul ...er I mean eternal existince in paradise].

  My wife's response went something like - the bible does not say you can not have a birthday party for your daughter... so it began. We were shown an article about the origins of birthdays from the following website http://www.abcog.org/birthday.htm -- I thought they discouraged surfing the web.

  While the article raises some interesting points about the pagan origins of birthday's in certain cultures - I so not see the answer to the question of where in the bible it says you can't have a kid's birthday party. This is a typical straw man argument as far as reasoning goes...

  UNTIL NOW I LEFT HER JW FAMILY MEMBERS ALONE - ALL I WANT IN RETURN IS THE SAME TREATMENT. Will they ever quit bothering her?

  Instead now they want feed her their doctrinal trite to try to drag her back into the borg. I am also concerned they will try to get to my daughter as the years pass.

  So I'm getting kind of upset but have no choice but to start a debate with them. Frankly I'm nervous about this as I'll admit they are much more well read and armed with references from their magazines [albeit out of context and in my eyes lacking in credibilty] and know much more about the bible than I.

  So as I re vamp my research online and in print I'd like very much to hear your favorite quotes, passages and articles WTS and apostate alike so I can fight fire with fire.

  I've pretty much seen the main sites, like: silentlambs, freeminds, quotes, apologetics index, AFF, ewatchman, towertotruth, Blondee's weekly study here at JWD and many others along with the Regi tech and UN scandals...

  I've gotten many great strategy ideas from these sites and members of this forum so now I'm in information gathering mode...

  So specifically speaking any awake and other WTS articles/publications I can use that anyone here recomends and any other websites I may not be aware would be greatly appreciated in my debates....
• 

  ApagaLaLuz

  Hi family man!! It has been my experience that JWs thrive off of witnessing debating. I have found it to be virtually pointless sometimes to argue with them. It is great that your wife is begining to see the Truth about the "truth." The only one that needs to be convinced is your wife.

  For myself, with my own family, I dodged alot of their attempts to debate with me by simply saying "it's my own personal choice which I dont care to discuss with you at this moment." I eventually wrote a long letter to my family stating how a felt. Eventually we repaired our relationship, and we don not discuss religion now. I know you want to defend your wife, but it's her stand to take.
• 

  SixofNine

  A couple of comments.

  One, you can find the latest word from the WT itself that is actually quite soft on the birthday issue. The society is backing away from the issue. In fact, you'll find a quote that says basically "true Christians need not be overly concerned of the perhaps pagan origins of many modern day practices, it's rather the way the practices are view now that is important." Or substance thereof.

  Your wife's family has not been keeping up with the leanings of the slave. Of course, they have not come out and encouraged birthdays, and until they do, hard assed witnesses will think themselves righteous and everyone else unrighteous by following this pathetic witness tradition.

  A moral aside on the witness condemnation of birthdays: throw it back in their face. If indeed there is nothing biblical to support their stance (and there isn't), then how evil is it of them to with-hold the golden ticket of everlasting life to their neighbors who simply disagree with their obviously weak interpretation. With-holding God's promise of eternal life (their concept of the big prize for approved people) on a self-righteous whim is the very height of evil, wouldn't you say? I recommend making a spitting-in-disgust type gesture as you say that last.

  And family_man, please, please, please disabuse yourself of this notion:

  Frankly I'm nervous about this as I'll admit they are much more well read and armed with references from their magazines [albeit out of context and in my eyes lacking in credibilty] and know much more about the bible than I.

  Give yourself two hours on the web on any single bible topic, and you will be so much more well read than any Jehovah's witness on the planet that it isn't even funny. As you said, they can only reference their magazines, and their magazines can only reference the whimsical opinions of a handfull of really unlearned, really cut-off-from-reality, and really old, men, living in an isolated compound in Brooklyn NY.
• 

  Joyzabel

  Please, family_man, go invest in Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom by Raymond Franz. It is a start on how to debunk the JW thinking. Let your wife read those books, too. From there you just continue searching and reading what interests you. Ray does a good job of debunking JW doctrine.

  Keep your guard up. The JW family members will always be hounding your family. That's how they are programmed.

  Joy
• 

  A Paduan

  Just say that for a multiple of reasons you don't believe they are christian, any more than they believe christendom is - here's one point of mine.

  • no charities - they do not care for the needy and sick in any form that even approaches the extent of other churches, let alone being the "shiny example", except of course for a plethora of words
  • and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
  • love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return

  They may tell you it actually means something else (one of those times where their literalism doesn't seem to comfortably fit their ways).

  You could say that you preach Christ everyday, and sometimes you may even have to use words - like today.

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Another strong point is "support" (consent) - ie. for their society and their ways

  • paedophilia coverups
  • shooting any whistleblowers
  • false prophecies
  • dangerous whims of "new light" eg vaccines, organs - transfusions will be next
  • etc

  Ethics prevents the support of such practice, and especially the avoidance of accountability for having provided such directions.
• 

  garybuss

  Six, you wrote:

  One, you can find the latest word from the WT itself that is actually quite soft on the birthday issue. The society is backing away from the issue.

  I found that comment intriguing and I did a search on the topic and this is the last comment I can find from the publishing corporation on the topic of birthdays.

  The Watchtower Nov. 15, 2003 p. 27 Questions From Readers
  "Jehovah?s Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays. This is because such celebrations focus too much attention on the individual and the only birthdays of Bible record are those of rulers who did not serve God."

  Can you provide the references to the texts you were referring to? Thanks! GaryB
• 

  jgnat

  Family_man, I think you have done a commendable job of keeping yourself informed. I think if you keep yourself focused to your task, you will come out all right. Some ground-rules to keep you from drowning in their double-talk:

  • Keep to topic. Do not let them distract you from your original question.
  • Use your common sense. If what they say sounds stupid, say so.
  • Their few rehearsed doctrinal points, say, on the trinity or the FDS, are held together by the flimsiest framework of unrelated scriptures. Even if you do not know the bible well, you can easily poke holes in their argument by reading the verse in context. Read before and after. Spend time together understanding the full meaning of the verse. If a verse starts with "therefore", find out WHY the instruction is given in the preceding verses.
  • What is literal, what is figurative? On any verse that a JW insists it is a literal interpretation, ask why? Why are others interpreted as figurative? On how do they judge the difference, other than personal interpretation?
  • Do not accept "isn't it reasonable..." as an excuse. If they claim to follow the Bible, they should follow all of it. What did Jesus say was the most important commandment, and all others follow from it? (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27) If so, how can they support shunning and refusal of blood, both of which cause untold suffering?
  • Leave questions on the nature of God last. How can blind men properly argue the nature of Elephant?
  • Instead, focus on the weird JW practices that claim to have a biblical base.

  My experience is that a JW will quickly back away from a determined debater. Expect these dear sisters to rush away with the excuse that they need to study the matter further. If they do, ask them how they could not know such a simple answer, considering the YEARS they have spent in study?
• 

  bebu

  Family man,

  I have been looking for a link to a WT article that came out a year or 2 ago, where they changed their long-held stance on pinatas being pagan forms of worship to being religiously-neutral in themselves.

  If anyone has that reference, could it be listed here? (it was a Sept. or Oct. issue.) I'm surprised that the quotes site doesn't have it, either. The PRINCIPLE is the same, and you could show your wife that 'forms' are not inherently evil--it's the content that should be the issue! (You aren't worshiping your child, but expressing love and appreciation on an anniversary of the delivery of a precious gift.)

  Keep on doing all that you've been doing so far. She will feel safer facing these difficult truths as you continue to support her with your love.

  bebu
• 

  SixofNine

  The Watchtower Nov. 15, 2003 p. 27 Questions From Readers
  "Jehovah?s Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays. This is because such celebrations focus too much attention on the individual and the only birthdays of Bible record are those of rulers who did not serve God."

  er.. Gary, that is newer than the articles I'm thinking of. Looks like they've decided to harden back up on it. I don't have the CD loaded anymore to find the articles I was referencing.
• 

  family_man

  Thanks all for your feedback so far.

  --Chevy - I agree that debating with them can be pointless, but there is another agenda... my wife loves her sisters dearly and feels she should start planting seeds of doubt now. I have a head start on her in the way of research - but at the same time I admit I just don't like someone trying to influence my family with false doctrines.

  --Joy Z - actually I've already bought CoC. I'm trying to read through it now, but am finding it difficult to find the time. So far I'm still in that initial stage of shock at the inner workings of the GB and how their whimsical decisions can affect millions. Most of all I can see how the influence has a heavy hand in my sisters in law life choices (not having children being one of them). Too bad it's difficult to use this directly in debates against JW's ...

  --AP

  shooting any whistleblowers

  I haven't heard about this? Can this be corroborated?

  --Jgnat

  My experience is that a JW will quickly back away from a determined debater.

  I surely hope so .. thanks for the tips...

  On another note... I read in a yahoo posting that the WTS change passages in bound volumes of their own previous publications to hide contradictions and changes of views b/c they found new light. If this is true this could prove difficult in using the WTS's own words against them... does anyone know of a comprehensive listing that shows the original print vs. the change...

  FM