thichi,
war created nazism in the first palce and communism was not defeated by war.
and the civil war was not really about the slaves ...but you are right it ended slavery in the process.
Does Bush Qualify???
by caspian 39 Replies latest social current
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Yerusalyim
Realist,
We agree on something....the American Civil War was not about slavery, it was economics...slavery was a side issue and a rallying cry. Having said that, no, war did not create Nazism, Hitler did, he and the hatred he carried that was born WELL BEFORE WWI. War did have a hand in ending communism...Afghanistan sound familiar...but mostly it was the economic pressure of trying to keep up with the US and the UK in the arena of weapons, and the internal strife brought on by that little guy in the funny hat sitting in the Vatican. So, a stong military is directly linked to the collapse of the Soviet Union...Communism died in China ages ago...it's a failure in NK, and Cuba...well, Cuba is Cuba.
I may be mistaken but wasn?t peace finally achieved with Russia when the US spent the Soviet Union into oblivion? Please don't be so naive, there was plenty of violence...though much of it was through proxies. Proxies Shmoxies the point is the US and Soviet Union never engaged in even one battle or dropped one bomb on each other. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, plenty of violence there. Besides, as stated above, without all the military spending Russia would still be the Soviet Union.
Now don?t get me wrong Yeru, I am not a pacifist and in the face of aggression I agree we cannot just allow a country to kill our citizens without a strong military response, such as invading Afghanistan was justified. I do not argue with that but how can you say that we were dealing with aggression on the part of Iraq? You're right, Saddam was a good guy, he didn't invade kuwait, he didn't kill up to a million of his own people, he didn't attempt to assasinate a former US President. While that is true like you have agreed we should have done something THEN. Doing it now though is too little too late. Also what had Saddam lately to threaten the US? I don't know about "too little to late" but you weren't getting Clinton to do anything, even when they tried to have Bush 41 killed...much less all the other UN violations...we should have done this the first time Saddam refused to allow inspectors to do their job...to little to late???NO, better late than never...only about 20% of the Iraqis want Saddam back...that's cuz they miss the power they had. No WMD actually, that's not true, plenty of forbidden weapons and weapons programs have been found, just not the stockpiles we were sure Saddam had...and I'm convinced most of that is now in Syria no terrorists proven to come out of Iraq Really, does the first WTC bombing ring a bell? Does financial aid to several palestinian terrorist organazation not count because they're killing Jews not americans, and there were several AQ figures in Iraq BEFORE the invasion...and Saddam gave refuge to several...but since they were jew Killers I guess it's ok then, Forbidden weapons, But that's not good enough for ya. yes but not the WMD also not true...just not the large amounts we expected...they're in Syria. and there is NO proof that ANY terroristswhat about the terrorists that were living there under Saddam's protection? were coming out of Iraq before the war,Ummm, dude, the first WTC bombing...Iraqi national...look it up. also where is the "financial aid" proof? From a source you'll not accept, I'm quite sure, Last time the Israelis raided Arafat's compound...documentation...monies paid out from Iraq. Saddam wasn't trying hard to hid it. No hard evidence exists as to these claims only hearsay. Nope, there's evidence. BEFORE we invaded that is. The boy was only trying finish the job his father should have done in the first gulf war I agree, worst Foriegn Policy mistake in decades. At least you are objective about that without realizing that many things had changed since thenyep, David Kaye the "no WMD" said Saddam was more dangerous than ever Dangerous maybe but dangerous enough to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to invade is just too hard of a sell and nobody would have bought it if erroneous intelligence hadn't been used.Are we back to the hyped intelligence issue again...show me an intelligence service that said, before the war, that the WMD didn't exist. and by invading Iraq we are only creating tens of thousands more terrorists in the Arab world. no, they were there anyhow...we're now giving them a chance to die in their homeland rather than coming here to die. Even if many hated the US we now gave them proof of how evil we are and helped recruit thousands more who may have been on the fence. Evil is allowing a man that killed a million Iraqis to remain in power...evil is murdering raping torturing, feeding people feet first into shredders, as a matter of state policy. My question is why did we invade Iraq when the public enemy number one bin laden actually, OBL is just a figure head, an important one...but one we can't get to as long as he hangs out in Pakistan...and he knows it...but remembeer, the War on terror is just that, it's not against Bin Laden, or AQ, but against all terrorists everywhere. has still not been caught and is still urging Arabs everywhere to kill Americans? He was doing that before, what's the change?bin laden was and continues to be a bigger threat than saddam ever was and yet he is not a priority Iraq is. Hmmmm....Logical thinking people everywhere are scratching their noggins over that.OK, logical thinking person, how do we go into Pakistan and drag his sorry ass home?
Sometimes no military action is the best policy and as another example I will give you Libya, Sanctions, patience and time worked not violence. Ahh, but you forget, Qaddafi only got serious AFTER we landed heavily on Iraq...and we'd run several military operations on the ground in Libya as part of the war in Iraq...most people don't realize that...the US had troops on the ground in Libya. Qaddafi had been easing up for quite a while before we invaded Iraq as Libya was negotiating over payment to victims families regarding the lockerbie thing and that long before Iraq was even in the picture.QADaffi didn't get serious about talking about WMD until we A) showed him we could run military ops under his nose in his own country, and B) had the political will to do so as shown in Iraq. I would love to see some proof of your claims that we had troops on the ground in Libya. Navy Seals operation, took out one of Iraq's cheif security agents on a mission in Libya, it was all over the history channel. As a side note, we had SF teams in Iraq almost a year before the war...and in Afghanistan...by September 15th 2001. This is fun Yeru. Let's see how many colors we can include in one post How can I make a color other than read, or highligt this? The only reason it's coming out green is because it was formated in on your end.
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Realist
yeru,
the American Civil War was not about slavery, it was economics
i am shocked! we agree on something! and especially on this topic!
Having said that, no, war did not create Nazism, Hitler did, he and the hatred he carried that was born WELL BEFORE WWI.
without WWI hitler would never have come to power, neither would have the communists in russia. a small percentage of the population foster hatred. luckily under noraml conditions such individuals do not float to the top. in extreme situation like war they start to play a role.
Afghanistan sound familiar
yes afghanistan sounds familiar. in hindsight i would say the russian rulership was the best that ever happened to that country.
but mostly it was the economic pressure of trying to keep up with the US and the UK in the arena of weapons
that is correct. these morons spend 60% of their cross national product on weapons. never understood why they needed more than 5000 nukes. one would think that number is sufficient to deter any enemy.
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Yerusalyim
yes afghanistan sounds familiar. in hindsight i would say the russian rulership was the best that ever happened to that country.
You always seem to prefer the communist government, huh, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the King of Afghanistan, now was there.
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Realist
yeru,
we both know the worst atrocities in human history were performed under pseudo communistic governments.
this does not diminish the idealistic idea behind real communism.
about afghanistan...lets just say the country is a mess. i hope we can both agree on that.
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ThiChi
Realist:
Your skewed view of history never ceases to amaze me. The bottom line is, Slavery was only stopped through war. If the North would have lost, slavery would have continued. I know that Slavery was not the reason for the start of the war. My only regret for the war, was that the 14 th amendment, making all persons US citizens and subject to the US, has been a disaster for States Rights.
It was Regan?s brilliant "Sick Bear" theory that historians credit for the demise of the USSR. As such, we ended it?s hold on Nations in many parts of the earth.
Your view of what created Hitler is circular and just plan rubbish. Wars are started for evil and just reasons, which does not mean to exclude just wars. Plus, Hitler stated in his book that it was what he saw in France while living there in his youth, that made him take the path he took.....
The point is, Just wars are needed when aggression is present.
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Realist
thichi,
skewed view of history? you just agreed with what i said about the civil war!
the USSR crumbled because they were bankrupt due to complete mismanagement. not because of a war as claimed.
Your view of what created Hitler is circular and just plan rubbish. Wars are started for evil and just reasons, which does not mean to exclude just wars. Plus, Hitler stated in his book that it was what he saw in France while living there in his youth, that made him take the path he took.....
just out of curiosity...how many times did you read MEIN KAMPF?
hitlers personality was strongly influenced by the war. but that is beside the point anyway. without WWI and the following economical desaster in germany hitler would never have gained control.
oh and by the way...hitler did NOT live in france at any point in his life! (can i mark this as a factual mistake? )
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Yerusalyim
agreed, Afghanistan is and was a mess, but at least women aren't being executed for showing too much ankle now days.
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Realist
yeru,
but at least women aren't being executed for showing too much ankle
with all due respect and objection to the taliban, woman were not executed before either for this.
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Yerusalyim
You're right, I exaggerated, they were only publically caned for showing too much ankle...they were shot in the head for other offenses like refusing to wear a burkqa. One old woman was given 40 lashes in a hospital emergency room because she took off her veil in the throws of a astma attack...she was given these lashes WHILE having the asthma attack.
Women are executed for prostitution...here's how it works...there are over 40,000 widows in Afghanistan...they are not allowed to work...they have no family members to provide for them...they prostitute themselves to feed their children...they are caught and executed for this...
Nice group of people huh.