I let a friend know I was having problems......

by nemo 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

nemo

Hello Everyone Nemo here...just keep swimming, swimming, swimming.
Anyway, I let my closest friend know how I felt currently about the organization and what affect it has had on me. She has agreed to not share it with anyone, she won't, but these are the questions she possed to me. I need to reply soon but my mind is overwhelmed with everything I have learned so I would like help formulating some answers. This will help me in future dealing.
I will never doubt your love for Jehovah. Remember that illustration from a few assemblies ago about the diamond? If you look too closely you will see all the flaws, but to the naked eye it's beautiful. I'm not saying you should ignore what you found, but you may want to take a step back and look at the big picture. Jehovah's organization is imperfect and constantly being refined. Do you believe that Jehovah is using earthly organization? Do believe that the new system is coming? Do you believe that Jehovah has requirements for those that will survive? Do you think that there is any other organization that adheres to them better? I'm sorry if I'm making it sound to simple, but, really, what will you do if you find the answers that you don't want to hear? Where will you go?
BluesBrother

hello Nemo.
May i say that this is a typical dub answer to anyone who has doubts about the Org . and it would be true IF you really believed that the Org was truly the channel of God today . No one argues that Gods servants in the past have not made mistakes .
The problems are going beyond that, however. Consider what it is that is making you have doubts. Are they trivial things that can be put down to human imperfection? I guess not.
For me I was concerned about the time scale passing by, unnerved by the abandonment of the 1914 Generation doctrine , I had realised that the Chronology arguments based on Daniel and Revelation did not add up . I later discovered the U N scandal, I found out that a lot of the quotes they use from other sources are , in fact miss quotes. Is that the result of a mistake like a flawed diamond? or rather deeper cracks that indicate that it just does not bear the "Fruits of the spirit" no matter what they claim
Remember to "Think outside the box" because the WT arguments can appear so plausible if one just follows them step by step . Follow your heart . Do not be trapped into thinking that you are incapable of knowing and that they "Must be right"
Keep checking things out , you have your whole life to gain
logansrun

I'm not saying you should ignore what you found, but you may want to take a step back and look at the big picture.

And that statement could be applied to JWs as well, couldn't it?
Jehovah's organization is imperfect and constantly being refined.
How do you know it's God's organization?

Do you believe that Jehovah is using earthly organization?
Ah....now that's a better question.
Do believe that the new system is coming?
Do you believe that a loving God would obliterate 99.9 % of humanity? Six billion people? In a rather messy and horrible fashion, mind you?
Do you believe that Jehovah has requirements for those that will survive?
How about broad and understandable requirements like being an ethical and compassionate person.
Do you think that there is any other organization that adheres to them better?
Of course the creator of the rules will say that they are the only ones following them. They created them! Duh!
I'm sorry if I'm making it sound to simple, but, really, what will you do if you find the answers that you don't want to hear?
Huh?
Where will you go?
Oh..the big Bad SCARY world! Ohhhhhh noooooooo!
It's been two years since I've been out and I feel I'm a more intelligent, more ethical and aware person. Most people are good. Life does not have to be dreadful.
Bradley
Nocturne

I'm not sure exactly what you told your friend about the organization, but it takes a lot of guts to take that risk. I certainly wouldn't trust telling my friends inside the org. about the stuff I know. Also, your friend sounds really sincere and open minded. I'm not sure exactly what you should tell her, but ask yourself these questions:
1. When you look at the big picture, do you believe the "flaws" of the organization are just flaws, or sometimes are the actions of the organization in your mind deliberate rather then being mistakes by "imperfect men".
2. After what you have learned, can you fully trust the organization to give advice on daily, spiritual, or even on health matters?
Whatever you choose to do, before you can answer your friend's question, it seems like you have to figure out where you stand in this whole thing. I know others will have better answers to the questions your friend asked.
Where will you go?
This question absolutely bothers me when it comes to JWs. They can't seem to accept the possibility that you can serve God without the wtbts. That whole question makes the assumption that JWs have the truth. But if you're not sure that they have the truth, there are many places to go, many different religions to explore, you might even want to study the Bible by yourself without the influence of someone else's intrepetation.
Hope this helps
Nocturne
itsallgoodnow

I got this response off another site. It's what I plan to use:
"I needed a break to re-examine my beliefs and study to make sure I knew the truth." This is suitably vague. It uses JW trigger phrases like "the truth" which reassures them you still are still part of the collective (and how could you ever discover that The Truth is not the truth?). It also gives them hope for the future which allows them to postpone forcing an unpleasant confrontation now, and as you know, JW's are highly conditioned to indefinite waiting for the fulfillment of their hopes for the future. "
Good luck with it!
TD

Nemo,
Your friend has responded to your concrete concerns with platitudes. This is typical, not just for JW's, but for other religious groups as well.
Any member of any religous group can say, "Yes there are flaws, but when you step back and look at the big picture it is a positive one." This is only a valid excuse in religious environments that allow at least some plurality of thought. Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow any.
In other words Jehovah's Witnesses themselves will not allow you to overlook the flaws. You must accept their views as if perfection was actually being offered. You have absolutely no freedom to accept those teachings that you feel to be correct and reject those teachings that you know to be in error.
From this, your friend then moves on to the "process of elimination game." This is also typical of JW's. "What other group is preaching the good news? What other organization teaches the truth? What other group lives up to Jehovah's requirements better?"
This line of reasoning is ultimately circular in nature, because it is Jehovah's Witnesses themselves that define what the "good news" is, what the "Truth" is and what "Jehovah's requirments" are, all based on their unique interpretations of the Bible.
As you can see, the problem lies in allowing the framer of the question to define its terms in a way that predetermines the answer.
If you were to allow a Mormon to committ this fallacy, you would get much the same answers. For example: What other group is preaching the good news? (As defined by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
When the terms of the question are loaded in this fashion, there can only be one answer.
Tom
Nathan Natas

Jehovah's organization is imperfect and constantly being refined.

Then WHY are you REQUIRED to accept without question everything they teach?
On the other hand, you might ask HER to give you some examples of some of these "imperfections" and "refinements." It may get her thinking a little, which for most Dubs is a frightening experience.
A Paduan

Do you believe that Jehovah is using earthly organization? Yes
Do believe that the new system is coming? I know that 'new light' is.
Do you believe that Jehovah has requirements for those that will survive? Yes
Do you think that there is any other organization that adheres to them better? No
But anyway, who's "je-hovah" ?
___________________________________________________
I'm sorry if I'm making it sound to simple, but, really, what will you do if you find the answers that you don't want to hear? Where will you go?
She already knows that there are answers that she doesn't want to hear.
lurk

Do not be trapped into thinking that you are incapable of knowing and that they "Must be right"

good advice.
.
this is my advice list i wrote last year to myself if i ever had to face interogation.
1) if possible make notes and pick out key issues and words
2) keep replies simple by using key isssues.
3) use short notes with key words ,don't be afriad to sit infrount of them with notes and evidence and refer to it.
4) If at any point you are lost and can't see why you ever disagreed with them .make and excuse to leave room ,like say you need to go to the bathroom , sit for a few minute's and gather your thoughts.go over your reasons again.take as long as you need.
distractions are helpfull and give you time to regroup..make cups of tea....remeber you just need to put some washing in the machine and you'll e right back.
5) ,if they were true then jehavah would respect your wanting total truth not false religion,know that in your heart.
6)dont take it to seriously .your life and faith is not about weather other people except how you feel.
7) if desperate fake illness and ask him/her to come back when your diahoreah has stopped,make faces like your about to blow up.
LOL at that list , how sad is that, i must have been nervous to have kept it.
as for those questions this is how i'd answer
Do you believe that Jehovah is using earthly organization? no i belive that jesus taugh the message and after that the churchs became corupt .who was the faith slave before the WTS? from 33 AD to 1900 AD ?
Do believe that the new system is coming? you missed it , it came in 1914,(id show her quotes) then ask if she thought ppl who didnt believe what was taught about 1914 are condemed by god?
Do you believe that Jehovah has requirements for those that will survive? yes
Do you think that there is any other organization that adheres to them better? thats trying to get you to say yes or no ......assuming that they are adhereing .....id say im still waiting for it to arrive .....someone who doesnt keep changing there beliefs .id quote the bible in bible where it says if they teach somthing beyond what they already declared as good news let them be accursed.then id place a pile of printed quotes in froun of her. an say thats wh i dont belive in your org.
id ask if jehovahs requirements included believeing russels word that jesus came in 1874/78 or that the end was in 1914 ..if i dont do i get destroyed? do i have to teach that jesus came in 1878? i'd ask what happend to he ppl who didnt belive the end would come in 1914?
i dont think that any of you religious organizations adhere to the basic message your to busy gettting preaching false end of world dates.id then mention 1799 ,1874/1878,1914,1925,1941,1975
i would then ask if her how many times moses preached somthing that didnt happen and wasnt a punishment?how many times moses preached soemthing then changed the dates continually.
does jehovah teach a lie ever?does he cause it to be preached as truth and change it? why does the WTS do that?
why was the WTS in the UN.id show her my email from UN. and proof that it couldnt be for library card.
i d ask her why she consorts with the beast
id ask her why did god cause the pagan pyramids to eb taught as truth?
eljefe

I have been thinking a lot about the illustrations that JWs use to "show" that they are the truth. There is a definition for this type of reasoning, logical fallacy.

This diamond illustration has nothing to do with JWs. Here is a funny logical fallacy from South Park. Anyway, if you analyze the logic of their defense, you will be able to see through them. Hope this helps.

I let a friend know I was having problems......

Share this