Torture to find WMD?

by Greenpalmtreestillmine 91 Replies latest social current

  • Realist
    Realist

    yeru,

    part of it was of course saddams fault. but imo the measures taken (embargo and second war plus the bombing of iraqi cities in the first war) were by far exceeding a necessary level.

    the 500.000 dead people are not saddams figures. ilooked that up after you claimed this in a recent thread. these are numbers derived from independant studies. they confirm the iraq numbers.

    the bombing of the radar sites were not very precise...many civilian targets were hit. .... and how many US aircraft were shot down? i believe i remember a number around zero! so again...exceeding force was used.

    but no matter how much of this is saddams fault it will be very difficult to convince the people who lost relatives due to US action of the good intentions the US supposedly had.

    Besides, the campaign would be to remind the WEST of what we've done there.

    thats gonna be hard too

    this myth that they are one big monolithic mass of emotion and agreement is just that, a myth.

    the arabs are united in the opinion that nothing good is coming from the US for them.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    I don't know about Kerry committing atrocities. Could you please provide some reputable links if you have time?

    You mean his own words on the Dick Cavitt show aren't enough for you? If it isn't go to C-SPAN's web site, they have the tape, you can watch Kerry call himself a war criminal.

  • bisous
    bisous

    even if the torture wasn't for WMD, both dems and repubs alike cry foul ...

    anyone watch meet the press and face the nation today? unanimous agreement from congressmen on both sides to take it to the top ... disdain for cheney's request to 'get off rumsfeld's back' ... this from lindsay graham - Repub, who also pointed out we aren't talking just humiliation here but potentially rape and murder

    and on face the nation .. reportedly over 30 separate investigations going on ... abuses aren't limited to this prison but likely others and in Afghanistan as well...

    i say get it out in the open, face it down and show the world that US democracy will obtain justice. if not we are up ye old shyte creek without so much as a broken paddle.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Thunder,

    Thanks for the link. I read some of it, but:

    1. it doesn't seem to support your slanderous charge that Kerry committed war atrocities in the usual meaning of the word, that he did it while he served.
    2. It seems to me to be more of a deductive piece, which may or may not be true. It's the kind where I would definitely have to hear the other side of the story, as with most information I get.

    The highlighted parts indicate to me that it's pro-Kerry; the red portions are, imo, speculative and drawing conclusions, hearsay, or need verification; the underlined parts seem incriminating to Kerry and warrant further corroboration; the bold parts seem to support Kerry.

    The rest I just read, but didn't editorialize it.

    Not that you asked my opinion, but that's my 2 cents.

    Pat

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Did America Abandon Vietnam War POWs?" by Sydney H. Schanberg

    "Follow the Microfiche"

    Vets Demonstrate Against 'Jane Fonda Kerry' on Park Ave ( 2 min. 8 sec.)

    enator John Kerry, a decorated battle veteran, was courageous as a navy lieutenant in the Vietnam War. But he was not so courageous more than two decades later, when he covered up voluminous evidence that a significant number of live American prisoners?perhaps hundreds?were never acknowledged or returned after the war-ending treaty was signed in January 1973.

    The Massachusetts senator, now seeking the presidency, carried out this subterfuge a little over a decade ago? shredding documents, suppressing testimony, and sanitizing the committee's final report?when he was chairman of the Senate Select Committee on P.O.W./ M.I.A. Affairs.
    Over the years, an abundance of evidence had come to light that the North Vietnamese, while returning 591 U.S. prisoners of war after the treaty signing, had held back many others as future bargaining chips for the $4 billion or more in war reparations that the Nixon administration had pledged. Hanoi didn't trust Washington to fulfill its pro-mise without pressure. Similarly, Washington didn't trust Hanoi to return all the prisoners and carry out all the treaty provisions. The mistrust on both sides was merited. Hanoi held back prisoners and the U.S. provided no reconstruction funds.

    The stated purpose of the special Senate committee?which convened in mid 1991 and concluded in January 1993?was to investigate the evidence about prisoners who were never returned and find out what happened to the missing men. Committee chair Kerry's larger and different goal, though never stated publicly, emerged over time: He wanted to clear a path to normalization of relations with Hanoi. In any other context, that would have been an honorable goal. But getting at the truth of the unaccounted for P.O.W.'s and M.I.A.'s (Missing In Action) was the main obstacle to normalization?and therefore in conflict with his real intent and plan of action.

    Kerry denied back then that he disguised his real goal, contending that he supported normalization only as a way to learn more about the missing men. But almost nothing has emerged about these prisoners since diplomatic and economic relations were restored in 1995, and thus it would appear?as most realists expected?that Kerry's explanation was hollow. He has also denied in the past the allegations of a cover-up, either by the Pentagon or himself. Asked for comment on this article, the Kerry campaign sent a quote from the senator: "In the end, I think what we can take pride in is that we put together the most significant, most thorough, most exhaustive accounting for missing and former P.O.W.'s in the history of human warfare."
    What was the body of evidence that prisoners were held back? A short list would include more than 1,600 firsthand sightings of live U.S. prisoners; nearly 14,000 secondhand reports; numerous intercepted Communist radio messages from within Vietnam and Laos about American prisoners being moved by their captors from one site to another; a series of satellite photos that continued into the 1990s showing clear prisoner rescue signals carved into the ground in Laos and Vietnam, all labeled inconclusive by the Pentagon; multiple reports about unacknowledged prisoners from North Vietnamese informants working for U.S. intelligence agencies, all ignored or declared unreliable; persistent complaints by senior U.S. intelligence officials (some of them made publicly) that live-prisoner evidence was being suppressed; and clear proof that the Pentagon and other keepers of the "secret" destroyed a variety of files over the years to keep the P.O.W./M.I.A. families and the public from finding out and possibly setting off a major public outcry.
    The resignation of Colonel Millard Peck in 1991, the first year of the Kerry committee's tenure, was one of many vivid landmarks in this saga's history. Peck had been the head of the Pentagon's P.O.W./M.I.A. office for only eight months when he resigned in disgust. In his damning departure statement, he wrote: "The mind-set to 'debunk' is alive and well. It is held at all levels . . . Practically all analysis is directed to finding fault with the source. Rarely has there been any effective, active follow-through on any of the sightings . . . The sad fact is that . . . a cover-up may be in progress. The entire charade does not appear to be an honest effort and may never have been."

    Finally, Peck said: "From what I have witnessed, it appears that any soldier left in Vietnam, even inadvertently, was in fact abandoned years ago, and that the farce that is being played is no more than political legerdemain done with 'smoke and mirrors' to stall the issue until it dies a natural death."
    What did Kerry do in furtherance of the cover-up? An overview would include the following: He allied himself with those carrying it out by treating the Pentagon and other prisoner debunkers as partners in the investigation instead of the targets they were supposed to be. In short, he did their bidding. When Defense Department officials were coming to testify, Kerry would have his staff director, Frances Zwenig, meet with them to "script" the hearings?as detailed in an internal Zwenig memo leaked by others. Zwenig also advised North Vietnamese officials on how to state their case. Further, Kerry never pushed or put up a fight to get key government documents unclassified; he just rolled over, no matter how obvious it was that the documents contained confirming data about prisoners. Moreover, after promising to turn over all committee records to the National Archives when the panel concluded its work, the senator destroyed crucial intelligence information the staff had gathered?to to keep the documents from becoming public. He refused to subpoena past presidents and other key witnesses.

    When revelatory sworn testimony was given to the committee by President Reagan's national security adviser, Richard Allen?about a credible proposal from Hanoi in 1981 to return more than 50 prisoners for a $4 billion ransom?Kerry had that testimony taken in a closed door interview, not a public hearing. But word leaked out and a few weeks later, Allen sent a letter to the committee, not under oath, recanting his testimony, saying his memory had played tricks on him. Kerry never did any probe into Allen's original, detailed account, and instead accepted his recantation as gospel truth.
    A Secret Service agent then working at the White House, John Syphrit, told committee staffers he had overheard part of a conversation about the Hanoi proposal for ransom. He said he was willing to testify but feared reprisal from his Treasury Department superiors and would need to be subpoenaed so that his appearance could not be regarded as voluntary. Kerry refused to subpoena him. Syphrit told me that four men were involved in that conversation?Reagan, Allen, Vice President George H.W. Bush, and CIA director William Casey. I wrote the story for Newsday.

    The final Kerry report brushed off the entire episode like unsightly dust. It said: "The committee found no credible evidence of any such [ransom] offer being made."
    A newcomer to this subject matter might reasonably ask why there was no great public outrage, no sustained headlines, no national demand for investigations, no penalties imposed on those who had hidden, and were still hiding, the truth. The simple, overarching explanation was that most Americans wanted to put Vietnam behind them as fast as possible. They wanted to forget this failed war, not deal with its truths or consequences. The press suffered from the same ostrich syndrome; no major media organization ever carried out an in-depth investigation by a reporting team into the prisoner issue. When prisoner stories did get into the press, they would have a one-day life span, never to be followed up on. When three secretaries of defense from the Vietnam era?James Schlesinger, Melvin Laird, and Elliot Richardson?testified before the Kerry committee, under oath, that intelligence they received at the time convinced them that numbers of unacknowledged prisoners were being held by the Communists, the story was reported by the press just that once and then dropped. The New York Times put the story on page one but never pursued it further to explore the obvious ramifications.

    At that public hearing on September 21, 1992, toward the end of Schlesinger's testimony, the former defense secretary, who earlier had been CIA chief, was asked a simple question: "In your view, did we leave men behind?"

    He replied: "I think that as of now, I can come to no other conclusion."


    He was asked to explain why Nixon would have accepted leaving men behind. He said: "One must assume that we had concluded that the bargaining position of the United States . . . was quite weak. We were anxious to get our troops out and we were not going to roil the waters . . . "

    Another example of a story not pursued occurred at the Paris peace talks. The North Vietnamese failed to provide a list of the prisoners until the treaty was signed. Afterward, when they turned over the list, U.S. intelligence officials were taken aback by how many believed prisoners were not included. The Vietnamese were returning only nine men from Laos. American records showed that more than 300 were probably being held. A story about this stunning gap, by New York Times Pentagon reporter John W. Finney, appeared on the paper's front page on February 2, 1973. The story said: "Officials emphasized that the United States would be seeking clarification . . . " No meaningful explanation was ever provided by the Vietnamese or by the Laotian Communist guerrillas, the Pathet Lao, who were satellites of Hanoi.
    As a bombshell story for the media, particularly the Washington press corps, it was there for the taking. But there were no takers.

    . . .

  • patio34
    patio34

    Yeru,

    It's surprising to me that you would say such a thing as

    You mean his own words on the Dick Cavitt show aren't enough for you?

    I saw that clip and it in no way said that Kerry committed war atrocities. Please clarify what you said. If that's the substance of your requirements for clear statements, it says a lot about you.

    Pat

  • patio34
    patio34

    By the way, Yeru, what do you think of the New Yorker photo today of the dogs attacking the naked prisoner, then his being shown with a gaping wound and a pool of blood?

    Does that rate as "torture" to you?

    Pat

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    two women holding a sign that says "We shaved our pubic hair, read our lips, no more Bush"? I laughed and laughed. Crude, but effective.

    I found it crude and disgusting. It clearly reflects the airheadness of people who cannot even articulate why they hate Bush so much. Plus as a female, I find it unacceptably sexist.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Patio, I don't know what video you watched, but in the one I've seen REPEATEDLY Kerry says "I have committed attrocities..." I haven't seen the photos you refer to...if they're real, then yes, that would rate atleast abuse, if not torture. Why, does it make you happy. Does it justify your sense that America is wrong? OHHHH BIG conspiracy, all soldiers, most soldiers, are involved. What are the circumstances for those photos? I'm not defending what happened but you can ask is this a police dog that was sent in to break up more fighting among the prisoners, etc? Let the system work why don' tyou. Again charges were filed long before the media got ahold of this...so what do you want?

  • patio34
    patio34

    I'm sorry to say this on the board, Yeru, but your biting sarcasm, as exhibited by:

    I haven't seen the photos you refer to...if they're real, then yes, that would rate atleast abuse, if not torture. Why, does it make you happy. Does it justify your sense that America is wrong? OHHHH BIG conspiracy, all soldiers, most soldiers, are involved.

    is too over the top for me to have a serious discussion with you. I, in no way indicated any happiness about this tragedy. I've ended this with you as I believe it's pointless to talk with you. Maybe I should do this in pm but it goes against my grain to let your sarcastic put-downs stay without challenge. There's no arguing with reasoning like yours. In my opinion, if a poster won't show respect for other people, I won't have an exchange with them. As far as the Dick Cavett clip, I'll revisit this on the net. It may be I didn't see the whole thing. Pat

  • patio34
    patio34

    I've done a Google search for the Cavett clip and can't find what has been alleged that he admitted he committed war atrocities (& the context would be important too).

    The Cavett clip I saw and what was highlighted was that Kerry said it was a war without honor and he went into it as a protest. They then immediately showed his position today that he said he did go into it for honorable reasons. A supposed flip-flop. But I'd rather hear Kerry's take on it.

    Now, to anyone who may be reading this thread, I would urge you to verify for yourselves the charges made against Kerry of atrocities. To those making the statements, please back it up with links.

    Thank you.

    Pat

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