Is God Faithful?

by ticatoo 14 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ticatoo

  God is by definition all knowing. As an omniscient being, what is there that would require faith on God's part?
  
  God tells us in the bible to be like him... "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect".
  
  If we are to be like God, and God is all knowledge and no faith, shouldn't we be more diligent in obtaining knowledge rather than faith?
• 

  Gopher

  Ticatoo,

  I think when we speak of God being faithful, it would be in the sense of him being "faithful to his word", "faithful to his promises", and "faithful to his people". So that faithfulness on his part equates to loyalty and trustworthiness.

  Should we as humans emphasize faith over knowledge? Remember that 1 Corinthians 8:1 says "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up". And also 1 Corinthians 13:13 tells us "there remain faith, hope, love, these three, but the greatest of these is LOVE".

  We have seen in the JW organization the results of placing emphasis on "knowledge" over "love". It's the love we were TOLD was there, but was lacking, that has kept many from returning to the organization.

  So any knowledge we attain, it seems, would best be viewed in the context of how we can use it to build up love of God & neighbor in our lives.

  GopherThe sieve says to the needle; you have a hole in your head.
  Indian Proverb
• 

  Music Mouth

  Oh please! Gopher, do you really think the "knowledge" Ticatoo was talking about is the same as the "knowledge" the JW org. talks about?

  I could not help but notice that 1 Cor. 13:13 did not include or even allude to knowledge. Not surprising, I'm sure the writer had enough sense to know that a lot of knowledge will not serve one well who wants to build faith.

  I'm beginning to think that knowledge and faith are mutually exclusive.
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest 'Tic... may you have peace!

  My Lord has granted it to me to provide an answer, if you will permit me. Thank you.

  First, you have misunderstood the words of my Lord when he said that we must be 'perfect' as my Father is 'perfect'. That 'perfection' had to do with being 'perfect'... in love. Loving our ENEMIES, rather than just those we consider friends. You might want to go back to verse 43... and start there.

  Does JAH love His enemies? Indeed, the answer is yes, in that He COULD simply rid the earth of all of them (and yeah, He did that once), but instead, He gave His Son as a 'ransom' for ALL of mankind... and has provided a 'door' whereby ANY who 'wish' it, no matter their ethnic background, gender, nationality, status, appearance, whathaveyou... can come before Him. Some may not 'see' the love in that... but considering our OWN 'thirst' for vengeance when wronged, and my Father HAS been 'wronged' by 'earthling' man, I most certainly can.

  As regards my Father being 'faithful'... my Lord has said that if faith 'is the assured expectation of the things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities, though not beheld', then, yes, He IS 'faithful'. How so? In that although it APPEARS that NONE of us would ever learn to worship Him 'in spirit and in truth', He KNEW some of us would... and so provided my Lord as a ransom... BASED ON THAT FAITH.

  The problem is, we get blurry in our understanding of what words mean, because we have been misled by 'earthling' man as to their application. That is why my Lord said:

  "You are searching the SCRIPTURES...
  because you THINK that by means of THEM...
  you will get life.
  And THESE (the scriptures)...
  are the VERY ones that bear witness...
  about ME (my Lord, the Son of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH).
  And yet...
  YOU DO NOT WANT TO COME...
  TO ME...
  that you may have life."

  We can read, read, read, read and READ the Bible, 'Tic, and TRY to understand its message. OR... we can simply go to the One ABOUT whom it is written... and ask him.

  Revelation 3:17, 18

  But doing so... takes 'faith'. And 'faith'... 'is not the possession of all men.' But, all one needs to DO... is ask for it (faith)... and he WILL 'receive'.

  I, myself, SJ, have spoken to you just as I have heard it from my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, Son of the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES.

  I bid you peace,

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  Maximus

  ::Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect".

  That's JWthink if you read this literally, and not in context. (SJ is right about context.)

  The context is, 'You heard it said [in the Law] love your neighbor and hate your enemy. I say love your enemies ... he makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good ... if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't the tax collectors do that? If you great only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Don't the Gentiles do that? So be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. " Good stuff happens to people who are good, good stuff happens to people who are bad.

  The original word simply means full-grown, mature, used of a tree that has grown and now provides shade for the birds, fruit to eat, doing its thing. Some paraphrases say, "Grow up."

  The Western concept of perfection just screws up a lot of people, and much of it stems from Augustine. "You could look it up."

  ::I'm beginning to think that knowledge and faith are mutually exclusive

  After a life-time of learning, I understand exactly where you're coming from.

  Maximus
• 

  Gopher

  Ticatoo, you started an interesting discussion.

  Music Mouth, bear with me here. I looked up knowledge, and found this set of definitions

  the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association; acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique; the fact or condition of being aware of something; the range of one's information or understanding; the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : COGNITION; the fact or condition of having information or of being learned

  I don't think the actual definition of "knowledge" varies between JW's and anyone else. Perhaps it's the COMBINATION of knowledge and how they seek to use it that differs?

  Like you, I noticed that 1 Corinthians 13:13 did not mention knowledge as one of the remaining "gifts" (once the special gifts of holy spirit were to pass away). But the same Bible writer did mention in Phillipians 1:9,10: "I continue praying that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment, so that you may make sure of the more important things." So could it be that "faith" and "knowledge", instead of being mutually exclusive, are actually COMPLIMENTARY parts of the same whole personality that we need? What do you think?

  Hi Shelby. I liked your response about "perfection" that is expected of us as equated to "love". That simplifies things.

  As far as the Hebrews 11:1 definition of faith applying to God, I don't see it. Here's why. God does not need "hope" to sustain him like we humans do. He can make anything happen at any time. So he does not need assured expectation of things hoped for, since (by definition of who he is) he does not need "hope". Secondly, the part about faith being "the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld" could not apply to God either, IMHO, because he BEHOLDS the heavenly realities that are unseen to us humans. He doesn't need to have faith in those unseen realities, for he can see all of those spiritual things.

  GopherThe sieve says to the needle; you have a hole in your head.
  Indian Proverb
• 

  ticatoo

  SJ,

  You said......

  "First, you have misunderstood the words of my Lord when he said that we must be 'perfect' as my Father is 'perfect'. That 'perfection' had to do with being 'perfect'... in love. Loving our ENEMIES, rather than just those we consider friends. You might want to go back to verse 43... and start there."

  You have assumed that I have misunderstood this. I've never liked assumptions. They always impede communication. And yet I am guilty of making one when I assumed that we all had the same understanding of the word perfection. Rather than fussing over who has misunderstaood the term and who has not, let's go to the Dictionary and use a generally accepted definition of perfect.

  I have picked the American Heritage Dictionary more or less at random, but you are welcome to go to http://www.onelook.com/ and choose from a number of dictionaries to compare and contrast the various definitions of 'perfect'. I think that you will find them all to be pretty consistent. As with all dictionaries, the American Heritage supplies a number of definitions, startng with the most common and moving to the more specialized and least-used. I am quite certain that the scriptures did not tell us to have pistils and stamens as our father who is in heaven has pistils and stamens.... so I think we can throw out that one. I propose that the most common definition is the one we are most likely to agree on.

  My next mistake was in assuming that I could briefly mention a well-known bible verse and everyone who read my question would understand that God wants us to be perfect like Him. Obviously, a few more examples are called for:

  Deut. 18;13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

  1Kings 8;61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

  2Cor 13;11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

  2 Tim3;17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  James 1;4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

  And as long as we are on the subject, here is one of my favorites, wherein Jesus gives us explicit directions in how to be perfect:

  Matt 19;21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. I can't help marvelling at how few of us are really willing to follow Jesus' instructions in this regard.

  Now... with our definiton of 'perfect' identified, and with multiple references to show that our Heavenly Father wants us to be perfect in the same way (AS... and WITH) as him, can we return to my original question?

  "If God has no need for faith, being all-knowing, and if we are commanded to be perfect as and with God, shouldn't we be more diligent about obtaining knowledge than we are about having or obtaining faith?"
• 

  Maximus

  I understand the intent of your question.

  Didn't want to come across arrogantly and say, The Greek says ... But that's what I meant by "original word." (teliotes; from telos, end, completion.

  You are taking a koine word, using a Western dictionary definition of the translated word, as a premise of your argument. It's not just about words. It's about what ideas the writer is attempting to communicate in the target language.

  But again, I understand your question, and gracefully bow out after offering this clarification.

  Best,
  Maximus
• 

  God_knows

  Faith for the godly person has to come first; Knowledge is one of the fruits of faith. Sweet blessings to you of you sweet ones! Love and kisses to all of you.
• 

  Free2Bme

  AGuest
  Are you for real or are you taking the p?

  Free