Blacks can't speak English - Bill Cosby

by closer2fine 129 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  jgnat

  Ooooops. Double-post.
• 

  jgnat

  As Leoalia has pointed out so eloquently, there are key factors to a new language. I use American Sign Language (ASL) as an example, because it is a language/community that was nearly demolished by the "experts". Alexander Graham Bell convinced the experts that deaf children would be better off learning English. What followed was over 100 years of institutionalized lip-reading, and in some institutions, ASL was banned. For a time, ASL went "underground", with one generation of deaf children teaching the next. This attempt to "normalize" deaf children in to the speaking world was a huge failure. Learning to lip-read dominated a deaf child's education, leaving little room to learn the rest of their ABC's. Sadly, there were more deaf graduates from higher learning BEFORE institutionalized lip-reading, than afterwards.

  Surprisingly, the deaf community first denied that ASL was a language with it's own structure and syntax. This is because the language flows naturally from a natural speaker, they do not have consider how it is structured to speak it. Similarly, I am not surprised that black native speakers may themselves deny that they are speaking a different language.

  There are children going to school who do not know English. This hinders them. It does no good to deny their native language, because I firmly believe a culture-created language cannot be suppressed.

  ON THE OTHER HAND
  I have a hard time convincing my African son-in-law (who is fluent in five languages) to speak anything other than English to my granddaughter. As a first-generation immigrant, he is determined to succeed. How far he goes depends on how well he masters English.

  I sigh. A child under three can more easily learn more than one language. If he would just speak French as well, my Naomi would be nicely set up for a cushy Federal job. Ah well.

  THE MIDDLE ROAD
  Don't deny the validity of Ebonics as a language. Make sure Ebonics-speaking children learn English as a second language. That way both culture and opportunity are preserved.
• 

  frenchbabyface

  Oh Jgnat : ASL ... that reminds me one day being in the bus late at night was alone in this big bus when a bunch of deaf people get into it... they were just talking (in silente) laughing load ... of course I didn't understand everything ... I've tried to understand ... but of course I failed ... it was just magic to me ... I fell like geez I need to learn it ... never did ... I still find it magic of course
• 

  Max Divergent

  I might note that the

  I would have thought that language use is as much about influencing the audience as it is about the individual's culture or esteem?

  I think it's useful to be able to 'Code Shift' between Standard English and other English dialects, accents or creoles when appropriate or advantageous.

  Cosby?s right that to be a medical doctor one needs a good command of standard English (and scientific English too). But that?s not to say that a command of ghetto English is any disadvantage to the Dr, just they need the capacity to shift.

  I don?t know anything of schools out of my local area, but here they distinguish between ?Home Talk? (Australian Aboriginal English) and Standard Australian English. They say Home Talk is fine for casual conversations at or away from school, but education takes place in Standard English because that?s, umm? the standard for the rest of the industrialised world ? that?s how books are written and TV is spoken, and that?s how you gotta talk to a phone Call Centre or a tourist if you want to have an conversation that doesn?t leave either or both parties utterly bewildered.

  That means the kids can, if they choose to, speak standard English if that?s advantageous to them. Like they know when to say ?Yes? instead of clicking the tongue as they usually do, or they can choose to click. But it?s a choice they make, they?re not condemned to a world where they can?t speak the mainstream language and are forever confused by the world outside the community they grew up in.

  Max
• 

  Leolaia

  Cosby?s right that to be a medical doctor one needs a good command of standard English (and scientific English too). But that?s not to say that a command of ghetto English is any disadvantage to the Dr, just they need the capacity to shift.

  Yes! Exactamundo!! You've just stated that so elegantly. And I might add, not just the capacity but a respect for the need to shift when you need to.
• 

  apple829

  I see this has been a hot topic since I've been away.

  Flower:

  If your theory is correct then kids should also do drugs, have sex, cheat on tests, drink alcohol ect ect since there is peer pressure to do these things also. If they shouldnt cave in and do these things just to 'fit in', why should they lower themselves to poor language just to 'fit in'?

  Understandably, for kids in school fitting in is very important but there comes a point where they should know that its not THAT important. In these neighborhoods it starts with acting 'dumb' to fit in by talking like an idiot and it ends with robbing someone for the latest $200 shoes to fit in and ending up with a criminal record.

  I've been teased for 'talkin all proper' too but I joke about it and go on being who I am. I was raised in a normal mixed middle class area by black parents but it just so happened that I wasnt around the type of people who spoke in ghetto slang so I didnt pick it up. Its not part of who I am and I wouldnt add it to my speech just to fit the black american profile of who I should be.

  "Fit in" is probably the wrong term. My "theory" is some kids do what they have to do to be less conspicuous.

  You kinda answered your own question. There DOES come a point where fitting in is just not worth it when it comes to doing drugs, having sex, and committing crimes. I would hardly suggest that crime and poverty in the inner cities started from slang and poor grammar.

  And we're not talking about "normal mixed middle class areas" with TWO black parents. Generally, these are single parent homes with no education beyond high school at best.

  Sherryl

  *Sorry it took so long to reply...been away a few days.
• 

  Michael3000

  May I just say: what a fantastic thread! Leo, your argumentation style is inspiring! Thank you for all the information you provided in backing up your statements - if only more people did that. Language can bring us together, or tear us apart. Depends on the level of understanding one is willing to acheive and practice.
• 

  Daga

  I'd read this book before I discussed the matter any further.

  
• 

  Leolaia

  John is the perfect example of someone who recognizes Black English as the dialect it is and dismisses the myth of it as "ungrammatical English" but who firmly and eloquently rejects the idea that it should be used to teach English, or even worse, used instead of the standard (as the separatists would have it).

  Edited to add: Also check out his "Word on the Street". A brilliant book on the subject.
• 

  Daga

  We agree. I take it you are not one of the "Cleopatra was black" crowd.