What is the difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design?

by somebodylovesme 87 Replies latest jw friends

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Is this you starting off another line of attack without having made any satisfactory response to Snelling's behaviour?

    I do believe it is!

    Actually Abaddon you are the one that started this other issue, not me.

    Lets review:

    In your post dated: 12-Jun-04 04:18 you started this by saying:

    For example, most papers supporting an 'Out-of-Africa' model make mention of the multi-regional model, and vica-versa, and actually consider the relative merits of the evidence for each model.

    No such openess and honesty on AiG.

    My later post dated: 12-Jun-04 06:23 was simply a response to your post.

    From your comments one might assume that evolutionists look at "both sides" of an argument, whereas creationists do not. Actually on a related issue AIG did just that: They gave both the creationist as well as the evolutionary interpretation of mitochondrial data indicating a descent of modern people from one woman.

    Therefore your last accusation that I was: "starting off another line of attack without having made any satisfactory response to Snelling's behaviour" is ludicrous. I was simply responding to an argument that you initiated.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Also in the very next post following my post dated: 12-Jun-04 06:23 I said:

    Now that some of your previous points have been delt with hopefully we can now discuss your new more detailed data from Joe Meert.

    Thus, it should be very clear that I was returning the conversation to give a response to your accusations about Snelling.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    hoobersu

    You have in no way responded in a satisfactory fashion regarding Snelling's/AiG's behaviour.

    In the discussion of the sample here;

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v21n3_date-dilemma.asp

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v25n2_sisters.asp

    ... no mention is made of the highly disputed nature of the claims Snelling makes. There are no links to this page;

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative6-26-2000.asp

    Here there is some discussion about the disputed sample, but also here at the very outset AiG make an ad hominum attack against Jim Moore.

    Even ignoring starting off one's defence with a fallacy, in the links I previously provided Snelling makes out a discussion of contamination to be an ad hom attack. This is either professional incompetence (he's got a Ph.d, as I outlined before he should know what it means in context) or a red herring (diverting a discussion about how contamination could well invalidate the age (fact) into one where someone who wasn't being attacked could be 'defended').

    His behaviour is why there is a system of peer review in the normal scientific world.

    DEFEND THAT BEHAVIOUR.

    And feel free to list any Young Earth Creationist/Floodist claims about chronology or other 'proofs' of their beliefs (one at a time) so I can show how the selective presentation of data used to make these arguments is either bad science, ignorance or down-right dishonesty.

    If I'm wrong, I'll admit it; I'll be interested if you can condemn Snelling's/AiG's behaviour for what it is.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Response to the "wood" issue:

    Here's the text of correspondence quoted in the second of the above links;

    From: Alex Cherkinsky[SMTP:[email protected]]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 6:58:55 PM
    To: Meert Joe
    Subject: Re: Some questions

    Dear Joe

    I remember this sample very well. So they called it "wood'? It wasn't wood at all and more looked like the iron concretion with the structures lightly similar to wood. I have told about that to submitter, but anyway they wanted to date the sample. I think maybe this concretion was formed significantly later than Triassic period and I do not think that is a very rare case when you can find younger formation in the old deposits especially if it is sand or sandstones which could be easy infiltrated with oil solutions. If you have more questions please let me know.

    Best regards.

    Dr.Alexander Cherkinsky
    Radiocarbon Lab Manager

    It seems you use a web site that will claim something is a piece of wood when the company employed to date it says it isn't. They don't mention it. You would call equivalent behaviour in a scientist you disagree with (i.e. an evolutionist) 'dishonest' or 'deceitful'.

    Apparently the company employed "Geochron" may have given different communications on the "wood" issue. It appears that Cherkinsky did not dispute that the sample was not wood in any written correspondence. Therfore giving Cherkinsky the benefit of the doubt that he did attempt to convey to the submitter his belief that the sample was not wood, he probably phoned someone at AIG. However we do not know who he spoke with, how strong his words were, or even if Snelling recieived this information in a clear way at all. Even Meert commented:

    Cherkinsky claims 'he told the submitter'. Snelling wants a letter, but Cherkinsky may have phoned Snelling, a secretary or a lab assistant. At this point, we simply do not know.

    We do know that the written correspondence from the lab used the term "wood."

    the analytical report from Geochron Laboratories described the sample as wood and under the heading 'Pretreatment' reported that 'The wood sample was cleaned of dirt or other foreign material and was split into small pieces. It was then treated with hot dilute HCl to remove any carbonates and with hot dilute NaOH to remove humic acids and other organic contaminates. After washing and drying, it was combusted to recover carbon dioxide for the analysis.'

    Apparently the company employed "Geochron" may have given different communications on the "wood" issue. The only correspondence that can be shown that Snelling received was written and used the term "wood", so I see no substantaition of a charge of "dishonesty"

    AIG has even offered the following:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative6-26-2000.asp

    "AiG would be prepared (indeed we would be very pleased) to consider a proposal to explore this issue further. We would consider allowing more of the sample to be submitted to an agreed expert for identification, provided the procedures were agreed beforehand and, by advance agreement, the results properly reported and made fully available to AiG, including for publication if desired. We would also require the opportunity of observing any tests that were conducted."

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Well, I think the correspondence over the alleged wood is a great example. The firm that dated it thought it was a rock. There is no mention of this in, for example, the page on AiG on the Three Sisters. You would find that in a mainstream scientemention is made of any credible doubts about the nature of a find.

    The firm "Geochron" has different communications on what they think the substance is. This issue is dicussed on the AIG website in the arcticle "Dating dilemma deepens: Moore on ancient radiocarbon."

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative6-26-2000.asp

    The above AIG page discussing this issue does link back to the original Snelling arcticle. I do however believe that the original Snelling arcticle should also link forward to the above "Dating dilemma deepens: Moore on ancient radiocarbon" arcticle (the original Snelling arctcile was taken from a June?August 1999 magazine arcticle).

    The "Three Sisters" arcticle does link back to the original Snelling arcticle. Proving a forward link to the "Dating dilemma deepens: Moore on ancient radiocarbonon" in the original Snelling arcticle should give interested parties the information on the issue. Also the Three Sitsters arcticle should probably also directly link to the "Dating dilemma deepens: Moore on ancient radiocarbon" arcticle

    UNDER CONST

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    hooberus

    I'm glad you think that the two articles giving the disputed sample as keystone evidence should link to the pages with the correspondence.

    I do think that reference to the issue should also be made in the body of the articles themselves.

    Don;t forget the ad hom against Moore at the very start of the article detailing the despute, or Snelling's unbelievable confusion over what 'contamination' is.

    I'll edit this when you finish off your post

  • tazmaniac
    tazmaniac

    I thought Al Gore created the earth....oops...he created the internet....silly me

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    I hope to post more responses before the end of this week.

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