US Condemned over rights abuses

by Simon 26 Replies latest social current

  • Simon
    Simon
    The organisation said America's offensive against global terrorism was "bankrupt of vision" and had "made the world a more dangerous place"
    "Sacrificing human rights in the name of security at home, turning a blind eye to abuses abroad and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses, have neither increased security nor ensured liberty," she said.
    The world should have expected the shocking photographs of Iraqi prisoners being tortured at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, Ms Khan said.
    "This is the logical consequence of the relentless pursuit of the war on terror since 11 September. It is the result of the US seeking to put itself outside the ambit of judicial scrutiny.
    "The US has lost its high moral ground and its ability to lead on peace and elsewhere," she said.
    Amnesty said coalition forces failed to live up to their obligations as the occupying power during the war on Iraq and that civilians had died as a direct consequence of the excessive force used by soldiers.

    Not really good reading is it? Nothing to be proud or boastful of

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3749363.stm

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    War is a messy business.
    Sadly we (Brits) don't have that much to be proud of, either.

    I personally believe the additional media coverage of this "fact of human life" is bringing that reality right into our faces.
    Will it reduce war? Time will tell.
    Meanwhile we will continued to be sickened by it (and it has little to do with whichever country is involved).

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    War is a messy business.

    Sorry LT, but I gotta say this; I'm actually getting kinda pretty damned tired of hearing that. It minimizes some very important, very NON-minimal stuff, and it cheapens human life. At it's very best, "war is a messy business" is just stating the obvious. Is that really necesssary, ever?

    A commander, a soldier, a general.... all can operate with a doctrine to use appropriate force to kill enemy combatants who are not surrendering and will not surrender, or, they can operate with an attitude that any native person who might endanger me or my men, is an appropriate kill. Sorry, but that's just an excuse murder.

    Regretably, the US has operated too much under the latter doctrine in Iraq, when the former would have worked much more effectively. We are seeing the fruitage of the "war is a messy business" attitude. Iraqi people have families too, and families get pissed when you kill their loved ones, as well they should.

    War is a regretable but necessary last resort to stop genocide, in the year 2004, it is no way to spread democracy.

    I personally believe the additional media coverage of thie "fact of human life" is bringing that reality right into our faces.
    Will it reduce war?

    I hope so, and I know you do to, LT. But it only can if the media does it's very important job, and only if "we" have an appropriate attitude towards "the fact of human life".

  • Simon
    Simon

    I heard a soldiers experience on the Radio yesterday (a real "one soldiers view of Iraq") and he described how they shot at and killed civilians who were no threat without there being any comeback whatsoever.

    Of course, you may not pay the price for heavy handed tactics in disciplinary terms but you do pay the price eventually.

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    and he described how they shot at and killed civilians who were no threat without there being any comeback whatsoever.

    Assuming that this is true, why are people shocked when it's discovered that SOME soldiers are sadistic bastards and do such evil things? There is a huge difference between "offical" policy (i.e. orders from Saddam) and some renegade soldiers and officers. Also, I for one never thought we as Americans had cornered the market on "taking the high road" esp. when it comes to this war. Western ideas and Islam are not compatable. A prolonged conflict between the two ideologies will continue for some time. Just wait and see what happens over the next few years in Europe. Even right now I hear that the Dutch are worried about the large Moroccan population in their country. It's going to be interesting to see what they do, esp. after what happened in Spain.

    Getting off topic a little, but people forget that the whole prison abuse situation came to light because of an internal army investigation. Show me a case where something like you mentioned was actually documented, investigated and no soldiers were punished.

  • Cicatrix
    Cicatrix

    "Western ideas and Islam are not compatable"

    After listening to a panel of Muslims speak last weekend, I'd have to say that I agree with this. They seem to have wanted freedom from the regime of Saddam Hussein, but they are resistent to Western ideology regarding the rights of minority faiths and women. But then, I guess a lot of people in our society are,too.

    I have to wonder, though, when these men, who were educated here in the US, are still maintaining that they have the right to treat their women as property, and that minority faiths cause nothing but trouble in their society, whether or not things will actually change in Iraq. If change does come, it will come very, very slowly, at a very great cost.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    ~whoosh~
    (sound of "the point" narrowly evading Six's pointy head )

    My issue has more to do with the castigation of a whole country over an issue involving a small fraction of its citizens.

    1. My personal political view is that I think that entering into this war was misguided
    2. War HAS been entered into, however, hence get the job done.
    3. War is a messy business, and some measures are always distasteful (fact, not excuse)
    4. Let the "boys" do the job the were trained and paid for
    5. Then let them get home to their families...
  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Too bad Amnesty International is biased and dishonest.......

    Calling It Like They See It
    Amnesty International looks at the war in Iraq and sees atrocities on both sides. Of course some atrocities are worse than others . . .
    by Jonathan V. Last
    04/03/2003 7:00:00 AM


    Jonathan V. Last, online editor
    LAST SUNDAY on "Meet the Press," Tim Russert confronted Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations, Mohammed Al-Douri, with evidence of Iraqi human-rights abuses documented by Amnesty International. Asked for comment, Al-Douri demurred, saying, "Amnesty International is not reliable for me. . . . They are a part of the war propaganda of United States and Britain. They are not neutral so I cannot accept their witnesses, what they are saying."

    Whatever you think of Al-Douri's comments, he's right about one thing: Amnesty International certainly isn't neutral. They are quite biased--against the United States.

    A visit to Amnesty International USA's website reveals this astonishing headline: "Iraq: Fear of War Crimes By Both Sides." The accompanying March 26 press release spends five paragraphs castigating coalition forces for "war crimes" on account of the U.S. effort to take Iraq's state-run television station off the air. Claudio Cordone, a senior director for international law at Amnesty International, says, "The bombing of a television station simply because it is being used for purposes of propaganda is unacceptable."

    One supposes that reasonable people could disagree on whether or not Iraqi TV constituted a real threat and deserved to be targeted. But Amnesty International goes further. Cordone accuses the United States of accepting the doctrine of "total war." This despite mountains of evidence that coalition commanders have planned every single aspect of the war around the pillar of protecting civilians.

    You would think that if bombing Iraqi TV gets Cordone that fired up, he would be in a state of apoplexy about what the Iraqi military has done: shooting and hanging civilians; using hospitals, mosques, and homes to hide soldiers; executing and abusing prisoners of war. You would, of course, be wrong.

    After five paragraphs excoriating the United States, Amnesty International spends exactly four sentences on Saddam Hussein's regime. Their denunciation reads in full:

    Iraqi forces are reported to have deliberately shelled civilians in Basra and to placing [sic] military objectives in close proximity to civilians and civilian objects. There have also been reports of Iraqis dressed in civilian clothes in order to allow surprise attacks on coalition troops.

    "Any direct attack on civilians is a war crime. Those who blur the distinction between combatants and civilians undermine the very foundations of humanitarian law," said Claudio Cordone.

    Other recent Amnesty International press releases are similar in tone. One bemoaned the coalition's use of cluster bombs. Another started, promisingly enough, by taking Iraqi soldiers to task for using fake surrenders to stage ambushes on coalition troops. The group's executive director, William F. Schulz, managed to call these tactics "perfidy." (Whoa, Bill! Take it easy on the invective!) But a few sentences later, Amnesty International returns to form, attacking the United States for the March 31 incident in which seven Iraqi women and children were killed when their vehicle stormed a coalition checkpoint.

    In a final bit of posturing, Amnesty International urges people to write President Bush, even going so far as to provide a handy, pre-fab letter. And this isn't just moral equivalence--they don't suggest any way for individuals to pressure the Iraqi regime.

    All of which suggests that Mohammed Al-Douri should engage Amnesty International. He's unlikely to find a more sympathetic foe.

  • Panda
    Panda

    Well, coming in on this rather post-mortem I would like to add my opinion. And it's nothing but an opinion from a gun totin' pro-death penalty pro-choice secular individualist American who happens to live in Texas (yeah the old Republic of Texas --- the only US state to have the right to set the state flag at equal level to the National flag--- but we don't do it out of respect.) Anyway, It doesn't matter what any of us think, not really. All of our arguing won't change the war now or future wars. The politicians like to get us little folk fighting each other because that way the stuff we really might be able to change will remain unchanged (gov't spending, health care, legalization of drugs etc.)

    The things we agree on are that SH is a bad man. I cannot wait to see what the Iraqi judicial system does with him, death seems appropriate. However if the UN has anything to say he won't get the death penalty. Now if I were a victim of SH my rights at revenge would be abused if he's not PTD. So again the Iraqi people will become the "push-me-pull" of the world governments.

    So maybe to change things in Iraq some go-getter entrepreneurs might opt to work in Iraq to establish communications etc... oh NO isn't that what the decapitated guy was doing? Oh I think that the UN has pulled out too, EVEN though that particular body demanded a position in Bagdad. Hmmmm The French government wants a piece of the oil pie as do the Russians, but even that won't keep them around long enough to reconstruct the infrastructure. AND where the heck are the Arab charities?

    Those human rights abuses in prison are awful. I think that the sentences are way way too lenient. I blame the actual perpetrators. You know the men and women foolish enough to film themselves committing atrocoties. They were mean and stupid and should spend some heavy duty time in prison.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    There is a whooshing sound indeed.

    Hear it?

    1. Let the "boys" do the job the were trained and paid for
                        edited cuz there can never be too much tongue in this world.

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