Sin, Mercy and the Watchtower Way

by Thirdson 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gozz
    Gozz

    Interesting thoughts there, Thirdson.

    The concept of forgiveness is absolutely alien to the JW justice system. There's nothing like it. You have to earn the love you're shown by the brothers. And if you slip, you're on your own. Look at the recent attempt to reiterate the position of the elders in the 'arrangement' for forgiving a sinner.

    Despite that the scriptures say that the sick one (let's leave the inserted 'spiritually' word alone first) be prayed with, this is usually not the case...A striken person walks up to an elder to say he's committed a sin. The elder is more interested in getting the details of the encounter,and referring the matter according to the books. The 'sick' one is not prayed with...It's all a 'works' based system of belief. The need to justify every affection by works is somewhat a negation of the free gift of life.

    "There's no truth in the world..."

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day Thirdson,

    I enjoyed your post. This topic goes to the heart of what is wrong in the Borg.

    When Simon objected to the known sinner touching him, Jesus related an illustration of the creditor who forgave two debtors their debts of 50 and 500 denarii respectively. Jesus asked, “which one of the debtors would love the man more?” When Simon responded, “the one in greater debt”, Jesus compared this to the woman saying she showed greater love to Jesus than Simon did because her greater sins were forgiven. (See Luke 7:36-50)
    Notice Jesus' words: "But he who has been forgiven little loves little."(verse 47) Do the individual Witnesses see themselves as sinners? I don't think so. They accept that they have inherited imperfection from Adam, but as for sin, only wicked people do that! This attitude permeates all the dealings that elders have with the flock. It's the reason why they come across as Pharisees. It's the reason why they are willing agents of the shunning procedures. It's the reason why they can only apply 'the rules' in judicial committee matters. They just do not see themselves as sinners along with everybody else. And so they cannot reflect the love that Christ showed.

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
    TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Ozzie,

    ***They just do not see themselves as sinners along with everybody else. And so they cannot reflect the love that Christ showed.***

    This is a profound observation. I suppose this is the very reason why, so many Jw's, carry such a heavy load of guilt. They know they really don't meet the WT standards (no matter how much they try). So their entire lives are devoted to following the Wt rule books.

    They can't make a simple life course decision, without first seeing what Mama says about it. Have to ask the elder's, have to write the society, have to read this or that article. Instead of developing their own consience, they rely soley on a talmud. Unfortunately a talmud, that seems to take big swings, in its message. Blood yes, no. Vote yes,no. College yes, no. on and on. Is it any wonder why they are so messed up?

    You really have to get away for awhile, before you clearly realize the tremendous burden this way of life entails.

    Great observation, I had not put it together. They do not really consider themselves sinner's.

    Danny

  • cornish
    cornish

    A couple of years ago a JW study hung himself in St,Austell in Cornwall,he felt depressed because he was pushed to give up his former friends,his football ,a hobby he loved,and felt guilty in difficulties quitting drugs and his family relationship was not so good.
    After the initial honeymoon period he found the cold Watchtower reality just too much and felt he had let God down.

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Ozzie,

    I agree with Danny Bear (!)

    Your observation that:

    They just do not see themselves as sinners along with everybody else. And so they cannot reflect the love that Christ showed.

    IS profound.

    The whole "we are God's specially chosen people, the only ones using his name, the only ones who correctly understand the Bible, the only ones doing this great preaching and Bible-education work, all through God's ONLY ORGANIZATION on earth" develops in all Witnesses, to some degree or another, the idea that though they may be imperfect, they rarely willfully sin (that's why OTHER PEOPLE get DF'd!). Since they are so enlightened and do not practice sin, they think of themselves as superior to the world. Which, when reflected upon, is precisely the bad attitude of the Pharisees that Jesus was pointing out and condemning in the first century.

    It is this lack of love that essentially drove most (if not all of us away). In some cases it was realizing that our own JW families did not love us as Christ taught. In some cases, it was that our own elders did not love us as Christ taught. In MY case, the straw that broke the camel's back, was that our own elders did not love ANOTHER physically and spiritually sick person and her innocent children as Christ taught.

    Interestingly, I DID get to point this out to the elders at the first meeting after I submitted my DA letter. One of them seemed at a loss to understand why the elders were not viewed as "fellow brothers" and
    rather as the adversarial disciplinarians. (Obviously this was the youngest elder.) I gave them a laundry list of instances where I personally experienced a lack of loving interest on the part of the elder body.

    And my DA letter precisely stated that I was grateful for the assistance and help shown "as long as I was active." It was subtle, but it is SO true. If one is slowing down, one can expect to be ignored in direct proportion to the lack of time or meeting attendance. Instead of that raising alarms, and efforts to help, the cold shoulder is given.

    The Society's actions described on another thread about how the Thai Gilead student and the diabetic Bethel brother were treated in their time of need are stunning examples of the historical lack of compassion displayed by Jehovah's Witnesses.

    And when individual Witnesses are motivated to do the kind, loving thing, their natural impulses are often "checked" by another brother or sister's hardline attitude.

    Very sad.

    outnfree
    (who had more to say, but has to go pick up my tee from driver's ed now)

  • Wolfy
    Wolfy

    I would like to say hello to everyone here on this board...I have been what you would call a lurker for awhile now..This thread hit home with me and I had to reply...

    It is totally true...It depends on who is who in the congrgation...It has always bothered me but I kept my mouth shut for the most part...My PO was an alcoholic....He would come to the hall and you could smell it on him!..He was eventually removed as an elder but it always bothered me..The first girl I remember kissing was his daughter...lol....

    I also remember a few years back our CO made a statement saying that up to 90% of the young people wouldn't make it because they were leading a double life...
    Seriously though...If there are so many people living a "double life" will anyone would be left when the wicked are destroyed as JW's believe ..

    A bit about me...Used to be a RP and a MS...Live in Canada..Wife and whole family JW's..I am IA but have recently decided to try one more time to see if it really is the "truth". We have started to study with a MS in our cong...He is very open and knows I harbour many doubts and that I do not believe some of the teaching of JW's anymore..For me the "truth" was mostly blind faith...I have been hurt too many times. I told the brother to prove to me it is the truth...He is actually the first brother in my hall that I can really talk to and doesn't want to jump out of his chair when I challenge core beliefs..ie Blood...(Almost ended up in a meeting with the elder over this issue)

    Anyways...Sorry about the messy post. I just wanted to add my $0.02..

    Regards

    Wolfy

  • MacHislopp
    MacHislopp

    Hello Thirdson,

    good post and logical comment.
    Another one for the file.

    Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp

  • Esmeralda
    Esmeralda
    Compared to the previous Watchtower quotation who would you think proves to be cold and
    merciless and thus liable for execution.

    By their own words they stand condemned.

    Truer words were never spoken, Thirdson.

    I hope all is well with you and yours, I think of you often.
    Another fine post, thank you.

    Love,
    Essie
    (who happens to Thirddaughter in her family)

  • Copernicus
    Copernicus

    Wolfy:

    You’re in a difficult situation, and it’s going to be hard to work it out. Far be it from me to tell another man how to live his life, but if you’re serious about investigating the “truth” you owe it to yourself to do some reading and gain some information from outside of the Tower’s sphere of control. Crisis of Conscience, Apocalypse Delayed, and Gentile Times Reconsidered, are all readily available basic primers for understanding both sides of a complicated story. Then you can truly make an educated choice.

    In the end – there is no “proof.” It just isn’t that easy. Since your whole family is involved, it may simply come down to keeping the peace by making a surface acceptance of the religion and maintaining some token involvement. You have to do what works for you, and balance that with what’s best for your family.

    On the other hand, if real truth is an issue in your life, and you have a personal conscience that chaffs under the Society’s teachings and treatment of others, you may be in for a rough road.

    In any case, make your decision on what YOU believe. The bible says that takes accurate knowledge and the Tower can provide you enough of that to see things as they are. After that, it’s all faith and blind belief. That wasn’t enough for me.

    Best of luck, and keep us posted. . . .

    Copernicus

  • Thirdson
    Thirdson

    Wolfy,

    You may be in a more difficult position trying to find out if it is the "truth" by seriously questioning an insider. It may be easier just to be IA and drift away. Your researching outside of the WTS's own publications is going to help you find the real truth. Not only that, but you will learn that being restricted to reading only WTS publications meant you never noticed the lies and mis-quotes used by the WTS to bolster their own brand of truth. Copernicus lists some good books. I recommend you read some of those listed and either buy them or order them from your local library.

    (((((((Essie)))))))),

    Good to see you again! S (Mrs Thirdson) read your reply and my post today. Her comment was on "to maintain the moral purity of God's people", about which she said "wasn't that the reason why Jesus died for us because we aren't morally pure? So how can JW's be morally pure?" She knows it is all a sham.

    Thanks for asking, we are all fine. My son is doing a 250 mile biking/camping trip this week. S and I are enjoying the week on our own...sort of! The family will be with us Thursday as it is S's brother's birthday. We will be in Washington State and British Columbia in August for a two week vacation. We will spend a couple of days with S's aunt and uncle on Whidbey Island and then head north. There will be three of us together so not quite like our honeymoon!

    How are you doing and is J back in work?

    Thirdson

    'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

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