Is your 'reality' just thought?

by Markfromcali 23 Replies latest jw friends

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  Markfromcali

  How about it? Most of the time there seems to be talk that essentially consists of whether this thought is better, is more logical or makes more sense - but what about the nature of it being just thought? In one way this may seem obvious or boring so as to be easily dismissed, but for example when it comes to religious beliefs things can get really screwed up, even if you think your particular brand is better. (however, this would not be limited to religion) It would be like someone who thinks everything on TV is real, and being disinterested in that fact in favor of being entertained by the various stories portrayed in all the shows.

  Consider the follow quote from Thought as a System by David Bohm. It's important to note that when he speaks of thought as a system, he does not mean the individual mind - but rather nothing less than thought as a totality, collectively and so forth:

  Q: If all I've ever known in my whole life lies within the system, then any notion of there being anything outside of that is only a notion of the system. And I can't have any idea what that would mean.

  Bohm: We don't know what it means, but we have to entertain the idea. I think we have to be careful not to paint outselves into a corner here - to say that everything is in the system and there is no way out of it.

  Q: I'm just saying I might get the notion that I could visualize something which was outside.

  Bohm: That would still be inside. That becomes the most dangerous source of confusion, because then you say 'that's outside, it's all right'. In such a way thought produces something which seems to be outside, and it doesn't notice that it is doing so. That's one of the basic mistakes. Thought produces something and says, 'I didn't produce it. It's really there.'
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  Odrade

  Mark, have you seen this movie yet?

  http://www.whatthebleep.com/

  O
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  Markfromcali

  Not yet O, thanks for the info!
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  Satanus

  Mark

  Are you saying that anything that someone has not provably seen, experienced, wieghed, measured, or otherwise shown to exist should not be believed to exist?

  SS
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  Markfromcali

  No SS, what I'm saying is more along the lines of distinguishing what's what. People are less likely to be under mind/thought control if they realize their beliefs are just beliefs. The danger I think is when you don't realize what you hold as a belief is only a thought, and start taking it as given, as reality itself.

  In this book the author makes the point that thought is only a small part of reality, yet it seems to be all pervasive, which can make it hard to distinguish from the rest of reality. Furthermore, we all know how people tend to try to interpret reality through their way of thinking. While this may seem reasonable to the person there is inevitably an incoherence between their thought system and reality at large, not to mention there is bound to be external influence outside the individual that contributes to the particular way of thinking. If people around you has thought fused with the rest of reality, that influence in itself is enough to distort your view of reality - regardless of the specific content. You are now in Thoughtland.

  There's more to it and I'm still in the middle of reading it, but the point I wanted to make is really not much more than that. Frankly it's not really a new earth-shattering idea, but perhaps we can call it a reality check. I think a useful question would be can you distinguish the direct experience of how things are from the version that includes your interpretation of it? If not, knowing that you have beliefs and they are only beliefs doesn't even do you a lot of good, you are clearly stuck.

  See talking about what to believe is really missing the point when you don't even see the behavior of believing itself, how your experience of life is constantly colored by thought and frankly distorted. And eventually reality will win out. You may not ever realize this, if that's the case you better hope you become the personification of ignorance is bliss - because you will suffer if you sense there is an incoherence between your reality and the real one. 'Believers,' beware.
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  Satanus

  Something to think about Actually, since leaving jwism, my efforts have been towards finding out what is going on, in general, and in detail. Many beliefs have suffered, on the way.

  SS
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  Golf

  My reality is reality. I've worked as a high steel worker for over forty years. My life depends on self-confidence to walk narrow beams many stories above street level. The 'only' belief I have when I walk across narrow beams is in myself. I can all the faith in my Creator but if I don't have faith in myself, I can't walk those beams.

  Now if you want to translate reality and thought, we can, by saying, I believe I can walk narrow beams and by acting out my belief that's reality. Or are you saying, I have thoughts of walking across the beam but the reality is, I can't because of fear? OK, sort it out.

  Guest 77
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  Markfromcali

  Hi Guest,

  What I'm saying is thought is just a part of reality, (after all, they exist) but there is more to the world than just the thoughts we have. What seems to happen is people tend to focus on thoughts when it is just a small part of existence, and in that way it's limited if nothing else.

  I would say in your work walking the beams is clearly something you can really do, but if you focus on fearful thoughts you lose perspective of that.

  edited to add: so in that way I would say you don't even really need to focus on confidence, but just the job at hand. If you've been doing it so long that kind of emotional motivation is really just extra, you know what I mean? You can be careful without having strong feelings about it - it's natural to, most people would - but I'm just saying it can be done without it being there.
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  Larry

  Interesting thread - I do believe that our reality isn't really real. It's mostly based on thoughts, conditioning, our limited senses, codes, etc. It's amazing how much we may think something is real, only to find out hours, days, years, decades, or centuries later that it isn't so.

  If we think it's real, then it real to us, but on a universal or dimensional level it's a different story.

  Speaking of David Bohm, I recall that he and a favorite philosophers of mine, J. Krishnamurti, co-authored a book (I have to find it) about this same subject - Thoughts. Needless to say it's a very profound book. Now that you stirred up my thought process, I have to find that book.

  Thanks - LL :)
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  Siddhashunyata

  " The Ending of Time" J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm. 1985 copyright Krishnamurti Foundation.