Numbers both literal and symbolic (April 1st Watchtower) (page 2)

stillajwexelder

I have never been more serious in my life Blondie - I just love your logic and ability to see things and be Devils advocate and see the other side of the argument also if necessary - I love your watchtower studies - keep up the brilliant work you do on this board - I really enjoy it

NeonMadman

Rev 14:1:
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Let's see now, according to JW theology:

The "Lamb" is symbolic of Jesus.
"Mount Zion" is symbolic of the "exalted position of Jesus and his joint heirs" (Revelation Climax, p. 199).
Having the name of the Father written on their foreheads is symbolic of the fact that they make known to all that they are Jehovah's Witnesses. (Revelation Climax, p. 200).
Having the name of the Lamb on their foreheads is symbolic of the fact that they are owned by Jesus as his prospective "bride". (Revelation Climax, p. 200)

BUT... The number of 144,000 is completely literal!! Yeah, makes sense to me.

garybuss

As a Witness I was told the teachings are not important, truth is not important, unity is the important thing. If there are wrong teachings we all have to believe the wrong teachings and when we change beliefs, the orders to change away from the wrong teaching, to most likely different wrong teachings, comes from Watch Tower Publishing Corporation offices and we all change at once.

The policy of believing obvious error always seemed shaky to me but I was just a kid and all the people I depended on seemed to buy it without question. Most of them were the ones teaching it. It still amazes me how much pure crap is accepted without question by the Witness people.

They have to be just plain stupid. I have never seen a different valid explanation that I could accept.

VM44

Hi Blondie,

Reasoning book p 167 Heaven
Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to "a great crowd, which no man was able to number."

A "definite" number, 144,000, is followed by mention of an "indefinite" number, "a great growd." The Reasoning book writer should be careful in making distinction between literal and symbolic numbers, and definite (fixed value) and indefinite (no fixed value) numbers.

If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the "great crowd."

Would it really? This statement is merely the writer's opinion. Also writing style has changed considerably over the 2000 years since Revelation was written.

Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus? statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: "There are many invited, but few chosen."

Jesus' word would apply to either 144,000 representing either a literal definite number, or a large indefinite number. This is not proof for either viewpoint!

The Reasoning book writer presents no logic, merely speculation based upon his opinion of the style the writer of Revelation uses when contrasting two symbolic groups or classes of people.

--VM44

Poztate

I was told the teachings are not important, truth is not important, unity is the important thing.

Hi Gary,

This is the real truth.Everything you have been taught is BS but the important thing is that they are united in believing the same BS.

Oh yeah and keep that money pouring in.

seattleniceguy

Good refutation, VM. My thoughts were similar. The whole premise is that a definite number sitting next to an indefinite number does not carry weight unless the definite number is literal, but they don't make any attempt to show that that is generally, or even sometimes, true.

As an example to show the reverse, consider the following made-up, but NT-esque, story:

A certain man lived in a large city with many inhabitants. When it came time for the man to be married, he made an open invitation to everyone in the city to his wedding feast. But although the feast was free and the bridegroom a respected man, only 12 citizens came to his celebration. What will the Son of man do when it comes time for an accounting?

Now, here is a story that is clearly symbolic in nature. Does the contrast between the definite "12 citizens" and the indefinite "many inhabitants" get lost? Am I, the reader, unable to comprehend this story properly unless it is referring literally to 12 people? Essentially, this is the argument of the WT writer. And it is clearly a very weak argument.

SNG

a Christian

VM44,

You wrote: The Reasoning book writer presents no logic, merely speculation based upon his opinion of the style the writer of Revelation uses when contrasting two symbolic groups or classes of people.

In Rev. chapter seven John does not see two groups of people. He first hears a number. 144,000. He then sees a great crowd of people which no one can number.

The number John first hears may very well apply symbolically to the crowd of people he then sees. It seems to me that great crowd of people might just include all of God's people throughout time. For 12 is a number the Bible uses in reference to God's people both in Old Testament times and in New Testament times.

In Old Testament times there were 12 sons of Israel, from whom all of God's Old Covenant people descended. Thus Rev. chapter 7 may be using the number 12 to represent all of God's faithful Old Covenant people. In New Testament times there were 12 apostles, who served as "foundations" (Rev. 21:14) of the Christian Church, a Church to which all of God's New Covenant people belong. Thus Rev. chapter 7 may also be using the number 12 to represent all of God's faithful New Covenant people.

Together these two groups of people certainly form "a great crowd."

These things being so, the number 144,000 may very well have been used in Rev. chapter 7 to symbolize all of God's faithful people throughout time, from both physical and spiritual Israel, Jews and Christians. For the number John first heard very well symbolized the great crowd of people he then saw, if that crowd was made up of all of God's faithful servants throughout time.

The fact that the 144,000 are said to "come out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) may simply refer to the fact that the resurrection of all of God's faithful servants of times past and the "rapture" of Christians who are alive at the time of Christ's return will both occur at the very end of the tribulation.

Mike

ozziepost

I'm with you, Mike!

zen nudist

all words are symbols of experiences or instuctions for ordering expeirences.... literal and figurative are still ideas that words may or may not trigger.

the intention of an author and the understanding of a reader can be very far apart if they come from very different backgrounds even though they seem to share the same langauge.... there are a great many guesses and assumptions in what we read based on our back grounds and that is one of the biggest problems computer programmers find in getting computers to understand language....

the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...

translated into another language and then back into english was returned as

the wine is good, but the meat is spoiled.

the way things are phrased can seem to one to have identicle meaning but to another to be very different...

consider

do not commit adultry vs be faithful to your spouse.

they seem to have the same meaning to many, yet conceptually the images in the mind, the experiences behind the words would drive a computer crazy because they do not match at all.... adulty brings up images of sleeping with someone not ones spouse... while being faithful intially does not, but may in outer levels of assumptions which we are good at seeing on subconscious levels.

JCanon

Hi Blondie...I agree with you...

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to "a great crowd, which no man was able to number." If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the "great crowd." Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus? statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: "There are many invited, but few chosen."

There is a limited number compared to an unlimited one. But whether the 144,000 is literal or symbolic of some other "limited" number is optional.

The reason I've noted for this is because everything else is symbolic in the context of the 144,000.

1. They are all "virgins"?

2. They are all Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 specific tribes.?

3. They are all "men"?

These are taken as "symbolic", obviously, but not the number.

My position is thus a compromise. Yes, 144,000 probably is a symbolic number too, but of some "multiple" of that number if not literal. Since 10 is an earthly number 144K x 10 is likely the literal number.

The gathering of the anointed to be done during the last days would have some relevance to this and my impression is that 144,000 is way too small for those of the anointed and 1,440,000 is closer to the number God wants to fill.

A precedent for using "10" is that 7 weeks become 70 weeks, 49 weeks become 490 years; both multiples of 10 for a symbolic number other.

7 x 7 = 49 x 10 = 490

12 x 12 = 144,000 x 10 = 1,440,000.

?

I suppose you can also think in terms of these "king" priests in relation to the population. What is the ratio one would expect? Are these congregation overseers (over 100), or circuit overseers (over 1000) or district overseers (over 10,000?).

If each anointed member at 1,440,000 were over 10,000, which is "kingly" enough I'd say, then it would extrapolate a population of 14,400,000,000 = 14 billion + people.

But that's just speculation. Guess we'll have to wait for the details when we're further along.

JC

Numbers both literal and symbolic (April 1st Watchtower)

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