The WT and Freedom to choose Evil

by jst2laws 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  jst2laws

  The WT and Freedom to choose Evil Augustine taught that evil did not really exits, only love, and that evil is the lack of love. But the WT Society does not agree. Evil is real and is opposed to good, just as Satan is real and opposed to God. Other fundamentals, Adventist's teach this as well such as the Seventh-Day Adventist. I wonder why? They teach that Evil was not created by God but is tolerated, that Evil began with Satan who, due to pride, choose to do wrong. Adam and Eve followed his lead as well as a third of the angels. THEY CHOSE EVIL. Prior to Satan evil did not exist, only good. The Society reasons that all God's creatures have "freewill" and that the original sin was simply a choice of people who chose evil instead of obeying God, who is ALL GOOD. God did not create evil, has no evil nature, is only good, and that his subject became evil by choosing it. But my question is: How does one choose something that does NOT exist? If only good exists, freewill would allow us to choose between one good over another good. For evil to be chosen does it not have to exist, or at least the potential for evil exit? Henry Ford for years made only black cars. When asked if people could be given a choice of colors he replied, "They can have any color they want as long as it's black". Today we have all kinds of models and options to choose from but to have freedom in choosing colors at least two colors must exist. But evil was chosen although it did not exist? By WT teaching God was good, all his works were good, at one time all his creatures were good and evil did not exist. How did they choose something that did not exist? By WT teaching at least the potential for evil existed. So who created that?

  God, who created all things Eph 3:9

  The dilemma this presents is this: God is not ALL good. Even if we ignore the problem of 'freedom of choice' (when evil does not exist how can one choose it) we still have a problem with why an ALL GOOD God tolerates it. It would seem that either:

  1 God is not ALL KNOWING, and has not discovered that evil exists or 2 God is not ALL POWERFUL, and cannot remove it or 3 God, although at least creating the potential of evil, is bound for some reason to not eradicate it for a time.

  The last possibility is the general Adventist idea. Evil will be eliminated when all of God's creatures have had an opportunity to 'choose' good. The rest die, if not tormented forever. But this still does not explain why the potential for evil came from an all good God if not the existence of it. What do you think? Jst2laws edited to add "NOT" in 'how does one choose something that does NOT exist?
• 

  Farkel

  Good arguments, Steve.

  Another way to look at it is to ask "Does the set called "everything" include evil?" Yes, it does, because evil is a something. "Does the Bible say God created everything?" Yes it does.

  Therefore, God created evil.

  Farkel
• 

  jst2laws

  Farkel,

  Very true, "everything" should include evil. To try and be the Devil's advocate (hehe) perhaps the a JW would argue:

  But the the phrase "God, who created all things" (Eph 3:9) is a relative statement. It cannot be applied to his creating something against his nature. It must be limited in scope and could not include "evil".

  Hmm. This would be a theory compatible with WT teaching but is there any proof that "all things" does not really mean all things? Is there any reason to specifically remove 'evil' from this catagory of "all things"? Was Paul speaking in a context that evil would not be implicated in the discussion? Below is the context of the quote above.

  the good news about the unfathomable riches of the Christ 9

  and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. 10 [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord Eph 3

  What do you think? I don't see how one could say the context has nothing to do with evil. In fact the discussion of a "sacred secret . . . . . hidden in God . . . the wisdom of God . . . the eternal purpose . . . in connection with Christ" are all, what do they call these Farkel, concepts about rather than real objects. In this context Paul throws in "hidden in God, who created all things". How could we be talking about God 'creating' these type concepts and yet the 'all things' created exclude the concept of evil?

  Jst2laws
• 

  XQsThaiPoes

  You are way off God said he created evil

  isaiah 45:7

  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV
• 

  ezekiel3

  Thank you for raising this topic. It is my belief that Evil must be present for Good to be defined. Only by having 2 points can you measure time (now and then), space (here and there), or value (good and bad, or evil). If I am "here" (the first point), were is "here"? If "here" is 20 miles from you (the second point) now you can understand where "here" is. Without a second point "here" is simply where I AM. "There" is simply where YOU ARE.

  So if we assume that there is a God with a distinct personality, and that God is directly interested in our greatest fulfillment, we HAVE to see that God created both Good and Evil at the same time. Good and Evil are only concepts measured in relation to each other. Before these concepts were created (the option of free-will) God was simply God, for being Good would assume some relation to Evil. For example, does anyone consider animals to be evil? We may say they are Good, but only in realtion to our values. Is a lion Evil for preying on a sick vulnerable antelope? No, the lion is only doing what is natural.

  Here is an interesting question: Did Satan create God? By Satan exercising the right to choose what was not God, did Satan produce the actions and premise that cause Jews, Christians, and Moslems to worship the way they do? (I include these religious groups because their doctrinal root "God vs Devil" are the same.) By separating humans from God (through imperfection) did Satan dictate God's limitations with how the "Almighty" could interact with God's own creation? Did Satan create God as we know "God." Yes!

  I bring up this point to show that any belief that God is only pure Good and did not create Evil is faulty. A JW would say that God "lovingly" provides free-will to angels and humans so that we are not robots. However anyone choosing Evil is destroyed (at least eventually). I would say that is not free-will, it's the most expensive-will we know - it costs your life! It would be more reasonable to state that Satan is in the employ of God, providing a testing opportunity for all angelic and human creation.

  What we all know and agree is that we appreciate how Good God is only because of the Evil that afficts us. Is it not Evil that draws people to religion to get the answers they crave? Thank God for Satan. Indeed, without the Devil who would need God?

  The Devil's Advocate
• 

  bigboi

  However anyone choosing Evil is destroyed (at least eventually). I would say that is not free-will, it's the most expensive-will we know - it costs your life!

  Poignant!

  That was one thought I could never reconcile as a dub. I chucked it up simply to things being the way they are. In order for things to work well, people have to do what is "right" no matter what the cost. It's all about working for the good of everyone involved, right? It may seem that way but there is something inherently 'evil' in placing the eternal life of someone you love on a faulty premise.
• 

  jst2laws

  XQs, You are right, God does create 'evil' (OT:7451 ra` (rah); from OT:7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral) Strongs Concordance This is the same work used in Gen 3 regarding the tree of Good and Evil (ra'). Even if a Jw tried to argue that the context of Isa. does not speak of God being the originator of evil but only making evil or trouble in a specific instance they would have to acknowledge that ALL GOOD would be a missing quality in God, which their theology requires. Please do not misunderstand, XQsThaiPoes, that we are trying to establish biblical theology by this discussion, but we questioning JW theology. In that regard, thank you for pointing out scripturally that God does 'CREATE EVIL'. Jst2laws
• 

  Morgan

  When I read this thread, what came to my mind was...Proverbs chapter 8. Yeah, the whole chapter.

  Are these scriptures talking about God or Jesus? When I read it, I think it is talking about wisdom. How God had to learn wisdom.

  I guess my thought is.....If God had to learn wisdom where does evil come into play? Job 28:28....To depart from evil is understanding. Soooo, (and this is just a thought), yes God was (is) capable of evil. He had evil tendencies from the begining.Because, he also has the same free will. But, he learned through wisdom to control it. To master it. Does this make any sense? Am I waaayyyy out in left field here?

  Morgan
• 

  Farkel

  I'm siding with exekiel3 on this one, but first:

  : To try and be the Devil's advocate (hehe) perhaps the a JW would argue:

  : But the the phrase "God, who created all things" (Eph 3:9) is a relative statement. It cannot be applied to his creating something against his nature. It must be limited in scope and could not include "evil".

  Of course, any dub who made that argument would see it quickly demolished. There was a tree in Eden called the tree "of the knowledge of good and evil." If evil didn't exist, then why use a word that points to something that didn't exist. Furthermore, if evil didn't exist, Adam and Eve could have no concept of something they knew nothing about and could not conceive anything about.

  And as exekiel3 pointed out, if at one time there was no evil, then the word "good" is meaningless. If ALL was good, then the word "good" has no meaning and shouldn't even be a word. The mere fact that God allegedly drew the comparison between good and evil is at least Biblical evidence that he was very aware of the difference (even if Adam and Eve weren't) in the meaning of the words.

  It's all baloney, anyway. Especially the Genesis account. We don't know a darn thing about this stuff until we take the big dirt nap, and maybe not even then!

  Farkel
• 

  jst2laws

  Morgan,

  Hello, and I have not personally welcomed you to the board.

  I guess my thought is.....If God had to learn wisdom where does evil come into play? Job 28:28....To depart from evil is understanding. Soooo, (and this is just a thought), yes God was (is) capable of evil. He had evil tendencies from the begining.Because, he also has the same free will. But, he learned through wisdom to control it. To master it. Does this make any sense? Am I waaayyyy out in left field here?

  Morgan

  I think your reasoning is as good as the WT's. In fact it is rather interesting. The fundies will argue that God "learning" from suffering was only as the human Jesus. The JW's will simply object to the idea of God needing to learn anything and Jesus was not God. But we here seem to agree that the teaching that God had nothing to do with evil does not hold up to their, the JW, standard - the scriptures. Thanks for you thoughts Jst2laws