by Steve Egner 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
LL,
I think that if someone has been traumatized,,this would effect their denial of certain evil sides to their own nature and lead to this type of possesion.
If a man has been molested and later understands how bad it is, this could cause him to deny any tendance he may have towards molesting other children,,as well as deny any other evil antisocial behaviour. Could not this denial brought on by or at least made greater by the abuse,,cause these different personalities to appear??
huh? Let's look at what you just said
I think that if someone has been traumatized,,this would effect their denial of certain evil sides to their own nature and lead to this type of possesion.
Well denial certainly plays a big part of what has happened to them and to some extend there is a denial of all aspects of the self. But if we all have some parts of the self that we prefer not to look at is that part of our nature or is that possession by some external entity. One is an internal dynamic and the other external.
Or perhaps you mena that denying a part/s of the self that leaves us open to possession by the external entity. In that case almost all people would be open and accessible not just traumaized people (or others who live in a world of denial.)
If a man has been molested and later understands how bad it is, this could cause him to deny any tendance he may have towards molesting other children,,as well as deny any other evil antisocial behaviour. Could not this denial brought on by or at least made greater by the abuse,,cause these different personalities to appear??
In my experience working with people who were abused as children (over 600 people over the last 17 years) they were all very aware of how harmful the abuse was. Statistics show that most abuse survivors grow up to protect children. My experience has also been that they are a pretty open and honest lot, and hate lies and liars (most having to live with lies they whole lives). Most go to great lengths to avoid antisocial behaviors or any other behaviors that might resemble their abusers.
The personalities of a DID person are formed in childhood during the abuse. They don't appear later on. The denail required to be abused and then get up the next moring and act like you have a loving family forces the denial to activate. The cognitive dissonance is too great for a child to cope with hence the denial.
Just as the majority of abuse survivors grow up to protect children so too the majority of DIDs resolve not to harm others. Even the defenders act only in extreme circumstances to protect the body. And most of the time the protector personalities used words to intimidate rather than force.
As for people like Milligan - I think I would have to read the story again (yes I still have the book lol)
At one point in my work I calculated that I had about 2% of the people I had seen who were DID. (Stats show about 1%)
Mark "Well, obviously, this just goes to show the different ideas people attribute to enlightenment." Mark, I do not attribute or even relate the experience of Billy Milligan to the process of enlightenment. Had I believed them to be related, I would have posted the comment as a continuation of the Kandalini thread. My recollection of the book was triggered by the Kandalini discussion, and I'm interested in possible explanations. While it sounds as though people pursue enlightenment in many different ways, Milligan's experience was tragic, involuntary, and gut wrenching to read.
Steve, I didn't think you thought that, but clearly some people attribute enlightenment to having special knowledge or powers, and I just wanted to address that point. From a technical perspective my post probably wasn't all that informative, but basically I just want to point out that even if there is special knowledge or power, there may be suffering. Rather than diving into this particular issue, I think it is good to take a step back and look at the extremes of the dynamics of fragmentation and unification. Sometimes an intellectual analysis is not all that helpful, because essentially the mental activity is again one of taking apart. Basically I could care less about access to special knowledge or ability, or understanding such phenomena, its like where the bible says if you have all these things but do not have love, you are nothing. Likewise having sophisticated thought systems to frame it without an appreciation of this truth will not bring about healing. You may be able to affect therapeutic change, but in the end what you want is someone to be a coherent whole. I suppose this might technically be considered off topic, but I don't intend to hijack - just wanted to throw that in there.
LT: That one statement about taking a birth was of course not the main point I was making, but as a side point taking a birth doesn't necessarily mean reincarnation. Aside from say the Tibetans, Buddhists tend to talk about rebirth, which is a different concept. After all you got that no self thing, not one or many, but just not. There's always change, even if some patterns are repeated.
Edited to add: To put this in context, I am of course not just talking about an individual psychological level, although this general principle can be used to understand the dynamics involved on that level.
Lady Lee I think you've already found these links, but I'll provide them in case others would like to see them. I could not make the OSU campus paper an active link, but the second link will take you to the interview with Milligan.
www.thelantern.com/news/2002/10/31/ Campus/Not-The.First.Osu.Serial.Rapist-311820.shtml
www.astraeasweb.net/plural/milligan.html
Some studies have shown that these behaviors often did have some experiental component to them. I recall where some people were spoken to as a young child in another language (as was one of my clients who had a personality who only spoke French - her father /abuser only spoke to her in French) or one who was blind (she had been locked in a dark closet for hours on end) and one who only barked like a dog (she had been treated like a dog and her food dish was on the floor under the table with no utensils)
A passively learned behaviour component seems reasonable in those cases. In Milligan's case, his behaviors seem so extreme, I have a difficult time embracing that as an explanation. Without a lot more information on his upbringing and influences, I'm still just full of questions.
As for people like Milligan - I think I would have to read the story again (yes I still have the book lol)
Congratulations for keeping the book! I think I tossed it in a spasm of self-righteousness while still a true believer.
Frankiespeakin Thank you for your summation. Jung had my head swimming.
I think and I say that cautiously,,that these different personalities are just part of the collective unconsciousness which we are all connected to,,and that this man's seemly posessions are cause by what Jung calls "oposites" or this man's refusal to acknowlege certain evil tendancies he has and these denials have lead to these multible personalities that take posession of him.
Satanus This is not far from the view I held as a true believer, after my first reading. I actually thought dey wuz deminzzzz...
I suppose suggesting that some of these personalities may be free roaming spirits of dead people is going off the deep end. They may have attatched themselves through cracks in the psyche. Maybe milligan invited them, calling for help while he was being abused. Just thoughts.
Markfromcali Thanks for your clarification, Mark. I do embrace your conclusion, that "in the end what you want is someone to be a coherent whole." In the meantime though, I remain fascinated by the "how" and "why" of the matter.
Steve, I didn't think you thought that, but clearly some people attribute enlightenment to having special knowledge or powers, and I just wanted to address that point. From a technical perspective my post probably wasn't all that informative, but basically I just want to point out that even if there is special knowledge or power, there may be suffering. Rather than diving into this particular issue, I think it is good to take a step back and look at the extremes of the dynamics of fragmentation and unification. Sometimes an intellectual analysis is not all that helpful, because essentially the mental activity is again one of taking apart. Basically I could care less about access to special knowledge or ability, or understanding such phenomena, its like where the bible says if you have all these things but do not have love, you are nothing. Likewise having sophisticated thought systems to frame it without an appreciation of this truth will not bring about healing. You may be able to affect therapeutic change, but in the end what you want is someone to be a coherent whole. I suppose this might technically be considered off topic, but I don't intend to hijack - just wanted to throw that in there.
Steve
I apologize for the misplaced quotation marks. I'm still quite the novice at this.
Steve
All had histories of severe childhood abuse and had many serious problems they had to deal with as adults
That's my understanding of DID as well. I attended a weekend conference once where a psychologist theorized that those suffering from DID had suffered not only severe and extreme abuse but elements of the bizarre were often found, (i.e. the case of Trudy Chase who was locked in a box and saw animals slaughtered). She also theorized that the creation of separate personalities is the mind's way of coping with such extremem abuse, in that at some subconscious level the mind can say "It didn't happen to me, it happened to Fred." She said there are caretaker personalities (the doctor), protective personalities (such as the martial arts fighter) and so on; the mind would create as many personalities as it needed in order to survive.
I do believe multiple personalities can occur. To me, I find it fascinating how the mind will go to protect us. That which we cannot process, we will suppress or even repressed to turn up later in life, such as repressed memories of sexual abuse, but DID is a quantum leap beyond that and my heart hurts for anyone suffering this disorder as it usually means hideous abuse took place.
I'm unfamliar with the book, is/was he in therapy? I would hope the goal would be to integrate the personalities back into the core person.
Chris
Big Tex
I'm unfamliar with the book, is/was he in therapy? I would hope the goal would be to integrate the personalities back into the core person
The book is still available, I saw it offered through Amazon and others. It's a sensational read. I'm going off a two-decade old memeory here, but it seems that he was close to complete integration by the close of the book. Comments I've read on his case recently indicate that the integration wasn't successful.
I'm still curious, and I truly appreciate the insightful comments and observations of all of you. Now, we can just wait for the movie, where a hollywood producer and Leonardo DiCaprio can lay all our questions to rest... (right...)
It was great to meet you in Texas, Chris.
Steve
