Idyllic paradise breeds idiots (page 3)

talesin

frankie,

But what about the thought (theory) that good and evil comes from within us? These values are only a creation of the thoughts within us.

Therefore, paradise or no, good and evil will still exist.

Good and evil only exist in concept they are not reality. G & E are just concepts there is no such thing as a concrete good as if it were a tangible thing that is definitely good. Just concepts we have developed which come from our evolved consciousness,,which is very misleading do to the ego.

Markfromcali

Well, one thing worth pointing out is you clearly do not need paradise to breed idiots, just look around in the world..

Instead of inquiring into good and evil, what about inquiring into ego in the same way? People are usually too busy functioning from egoic consciousness to do anything really original or significant, because your mindset is inevitably limited in that case. From a functional perspective egoic activity tends to be redundant and frankly a waste of energy. Even when it isn't totally gone, people who do great work usually forget themselves when they are 'in the zone' or whatever you want to call it. You're too busy doing whatever it is you are doing to waste time having all the "I think" or "I believe" thoughts. "I", what is it good for?

Timmy.

Erich

frankiespeakin

Good and evil only exist in concept they are not reality. G & E are just concepts there is no such thing as a concrete good as if it were a tangible thing that is definitely good. Just concepts we have developed which come from our evolved consciousness,,which is very misleading do to the ego.

That is exactly the reason why mankind need some type of "extraterrestric" (or you can say: based on watching by a not-involved "observer" in physics terminology) revelation to distinguish GOOD and BAD. If there is no or never such a type of revelation, then mankind is judged to death and destruction from the beginning. You can never claim that "evolution" is smart enough to find the difference, instead of the mankind;-(

E.

Markfromcali

Lets clarify one point: To say good and evil are relative concepts is not the same as saying they do not exist at all, althought you might say they are not ultimately real. For example what is good for humans may be harmful to the rest of life on the planet, and that will in turn have another impact on people at some point - whether "good" or "bad".

If you stop and just consider the concept of good and bad for a moment, it is a very limited idea and just doesn't tell you much. First you have to divide into the two sides, a gross simplification. Also inherent in the psychological attitude is to cling to the good and avoid the bad, or kill or destroy the bad or whatever. Now like any other human, I'd rather not go out on the street and get hit by a bus - I think that would be bad. But if I had this psychological attitude it would essentially be one of ignorance and may in fact increase the chances of me getting hit, whereas if I take the overall picture of the traffic situation into consideration I have the best chance of crossing the street safely. Taken to an extreme the attitude would be like only avoiding the bus and not paying attention to other vehicles, getting mad at busses and throwing rocks at them or something. This is not the way.

So like all thoughts, I think the idea of good and evil can be useful - but since it is SO simplistic that usefulness is extremely limited. Often when this idea comes up there is an emotional charge isn't there? And if one considers a person evil thats probably all they feel they need to know about them, so the mind essentially stops - or focus on the evilness or something along those lines. This simply is not very intelligent behavior, it is what I would call ignorance.

Markfromcali

To address the original subject directly, it implies intelligence is dependent on struggle, doesn't it? While there may be a kind of intelligence focused around survival, this is certainly not the only thing intelligence is good for. We can say people whose existence is just eat and sleep will lose their skill and ability because such is no longer necessary, (I'm not sure if that is intelligence in the first place) but this is not everyone.

More interesting I think is Frankie's point about how the ego can be misleading. In this case we are talking about the survival of the egoic consciousness. In the same way we can say consciousness is not dependent on this struggle just like you don't need a struggle for physical survival to have intelligence. (even if that is the focus of many) With ego theres a twist though, and that is do we have a thing called ego in the first place? Sure there is this collection of personal characteristics that is identified with, but clearly its not as tangible as the body, and it changes. If ego doesn't exist in the first place, and there is this struggle to perpetuate it - then wouldn't that be a sure formula for stupidity, just as biological existence alone would be? Because it is mental you might come up with a lot of ideas of egoic identity, but since all of it would be bullshite that's hardly intelligence eh? Oh yeah, in this case you also suffer.

Satanus

Speaking of ego, it is quite useful as a means of competing for food, shelter etc. If ego was not used by humans in their march through time, from whatever was their beginning, i wonder if we would be here today. Likely, we would have starved to death, or been wiped out by animals or something else.

In a perfect paradise, ego would not be needed, thus never created by the psyche in many of its inhabitants.

SS

Markfromcali

Yes SS it has been, and continues to be at certain stages of human development. Of course, at some point one might want to move on, as it becomes obsolete.

I was thinking along the lines of ego and paradise myself, and the question that comes up is can a real paradise be created if the population that survives into it is still under this mistaken notion? (the whole survival into the new system deal) Of course, if we go with the JW model it is a bunch of perfect egos that function as parts of the machine, but egos nontheless. Just because you got a bunch of goody two shoes in an environment where all your needs are provided for you it doesn't mean there is no ego - look at Ned Flanders.

Satanus

at some point one might want to move on,

That seems to be the key.

Going hypothetical here: For a baby to grow up without developing an ego, if that is possible, all of it's needs for warmth, being held, loved, fed, rocked, and a million other needs/wants would need to be filled almost before it felt them. That would be called being spoiled. Just thoughts

SS

Carmel

The "challenge and response theory" suggests that intelligence and industrousness are products of the temperate zones. Toynbee postulated that the far northern climates and tropical climates both failed to stimulate the human intellect. The former was so difficult that survival took all ones energy, whilst the latter was too easy and was the cause of physical and mental laziness. Only in the temperate zones did industry and art flurish...

carmel

Idyllic paradise breeds idiots

Share this