In the name of belated wisdom

by Kent 51 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  peaceloveharmony

  hey larc,

  i had to chuckle when i read this:
  

  No really foul jokes in front of women, no yelling in the heat of an agruement, and no frequent use of the F word. It might be used occasionally in a moment of expasperation, but not on a regular basis

  i thought to myself "hmm, i like foul jokes just like the next guy and i'll drop the f-bomb whenever i fucking feel like it"

  love
  harmony

  "Power doesn't mean you're acting like a man, or you're a bully or a bitch. It's that you don't let people step on you"
  -Sharon Monplaisir
• 

  mommy

  Kent,
  Great post

  MD,
  WOW! I am torn with agreeing with you and closing my mouth with my hand because my jaw has dropped. I agree we have no special "group" but in a way we are special. Many of us suffer daily from the loss of loved ones still in. And many have turned their life around and never looked back, unfortunatly those do not post, or do they?

  As far as wars between each other, they will occur. We are a mesh of personalities, and different nationalities as Kent stated. I sometimes wonder what "newbies" think of our fighting, and think it may be a put off. But on the other hand they should be able to see that we are just a bunch of different personalities trying to get along. Of course the shallow closed mindedness of the org do affect their decisions, imo. And I am sure they are put off. I would have been when I first left, honestly I can say that.

  But I am different now. I have been out for 9 years. I have a life of my own. But I still have family in. My blood is still involved in this org and their actions toward me are affected by it.

  "They know not what they do"

  I have stated before, I come here to let the newbies know they are not alone, and there is life after the org. And yes, I sometimes cringe at some comments made here, by fellow ex jw's. But I guess you are right, they should realize that we are just humans that make mistakes, that our personalities are so different. I just hope that some have been "away" long enough to make this decision. The org thinking stays with us for so long.

  I commend Kent for bringing this to our attention.
  wendy
• 

  Kent

  Hi Folks!

  I think it’s great that this subject is discussed, because I happen to think it’s a rather important subject. Not because I feel so – but because I know that this is what many people really do care about – and many don’t dare to say what they really feel.

  Many people on the list has said a lot of interesting things, and I will try to take a look at a few of the things I personally do find interesting.

  Larc said:

  Even though I have been out a long time and have no big emotional issues anymore, I was still a little nervous when I first posted here, wanting to be accepted and all.

  Quite an interesting saying, for many reasons. If we are honest with ourselves we all know we were rather nervous the first time we posted to a list. Personally I was nervous, wondering how the others on the list would react, a bit nervous because the talking is in English – and I’m not that good in that language, and lots of other details.

  When this is said, should we take such issues into considerations when we do post to a list? Do people in a pub behave in an unnatural way because there might be someone looking in the windows, or maybe come in – but have never been in a pub before? Or should we behave like normal human beings, thinking the people that join in the pub are grown ups?

  I think the last is the way to behave. I am fully aware some people do have problems – some are even psychological wrecks, real psychos that should really be in medical care! That’s a fact, whether we like it or not. In spite of this fact I honestly believe we should behave in a quite normal way. Being extremely careful not to “hurt” people in need of specialist help can’t be an issue. We will fail badly if we try!

  Then larc said:

  Sometimes, in the heat of battle, I have lashed out at people, but I have apologized on such occassions, seem to be friends with those folks.

  Which is absolutely true, and the way life really is. We win some, and we lose some. In the heat of a battle we can all lash out to others – but that’s not necessarily bad. It might be good, as a matter of fact, since it’s good to get stuff off the chest, so to speak. The things that are bad is character assassinations, personal attacks and the like.

  I have to admit I really don’t understand larc, though – and contrary to him I don’t find females to be stupid, fragile dolls. He said:

  However, there are limits. No really foul jokes in front of women,

  Together with the friendly kick in the ass, I’ll say that larc might have another experience with women than I do. Or, to say it another way, he might get a nasty shock if he met the “wrong” woman. LOL

  Unclebruce said:

  Most, like YouKnow, Bathory, Yadirf and Fred Hall aren't as ignorant as they often appear to the untrained eye and just can't stomach what they see as the arrogant self righteousness and anti-watchtower bile of the big apostates.

  They are not, but they do have huge problems, and they are scared. Scared of the possibility IF the Watchtower is correct – they are dead meat! They KNOW what they are doing by being here is an offence, illegal, punishable by death by their no good brainless god, and the possibility scares them. As it scares the shit out of MANY ex-jws. What IF Armageddon came to morrow? Uhhhhh.

  But I’m convinced unclebruce is right. YouKnow has proven more than once he actually do have a brain, and just have chosen to use it in a self-destructing way – for the moment. I believe YouKnow will come along just nicely, and I’m not really sure he’s real any more. He keeps on his drivel in a desperate attempt to find his beliefs again.

  Nobody is as stupid as FredHall. It’s simply impossible to be as ignorant as that troll, and I wonder what joker hiding behind the name. It doesn’t matter – but I even do suspect the person might be funny. He’s probably lonely, and would like to have new friends. Who knows, maybe even Fred will come along. As for Bathory and Yardirf, I really don’t know. LOL

  Teejay asked:

  Do you really believe any of what you said ... enough to follow your own advice?

  Yes, I do – and you know that perfectly well. The last days have proven that you actually do have a social intelligence – and shocked the shit out of many on the board. LOL

  As a matter of fact, I DO follow my own advice – but I’m not flawless more than 98% of the time (smile). I’ve seen too many wars, and I’ve seen too many people jumping to each others throats for no reason at all. Personal pride is a shit thing in such cases – since this fuckin personal pride makes (mostly) men behave like complete idiots many times.

  That doesn’t mean I don’t behave like a moron EVERY NOW AND THEN – (fuck you, teejay – I actually did mean that, he, he) – but the reason many things may seem a little weird doesn’t mean the error is on MY part. It is POSSIBLE my sayings are misunderstood – or that the receiver in the other end simply doesn’t grasp what I’m saying. Cultural differences, teejay – that’s mor important than we often do believe.

  Mommie Dark said an important thing to remember:

  Getting out of a cult is no guarantee that one will be 'happier, healthier, better all round.' Whether one leaves or stays in the cult, being happy and healthy are individual things. As for 'better', that is a pretty subjective term. Better than what? Better compared to what? Whose notion of 'better', or 'healthier' will you offer as the gold standard?

  Fact is, we should be a bit more humble when it comes to judging others, and believing we have the superior life. Facts might actually be otherwise than we ourselves do believe. LOL.

  Anyway – I believe it’s great this question is debated – because I believe it’s important. And – maybe we will remember some of the thought presented in this thread the next time we feel like ask someone to “kiss my ass” or “go fuck themselves”. LOL

  Yakki Da

  Kent

  "The only difference between God and Adolf Hitler is that God is more proficient at genocide."

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  Tina

  (((((((MD)))))))) you echo my thoughts!
  In the real world one learns that we are not obligated to meet their needs,they are repsonsible for that.No one else. We don't need to meet anyones standards or expectations other than our own.
  The first and foremost thing anyone lurking needs to learn is that it's all about personal responsibility. We are not here to fulfill their wishes dreams and desires of what 'should be'.
  If they choose to stay they are responsible for the consequences of that decision. Just as they are responsible to face reality if they don't.
  We are here to grow and be responsible and hopefully contribute something back on our journey.
  Once they uinderstand the language of their own feelings and emotions,then they will have achieved self-mastery,independence and freedom.
  We are each responsible for the life and decisions we choose. No one else. If it's too much for them,well.......get pro help. That is also a committment to mastery and freedom. It's all about choices.
  luv ya,Tina

  psssssst BETHelMOle's the name
• 

  waiting

  hey larc,

  I know what you meant about not telling the really foul jokes in front of women. Some women, even some men, might be offended. It depends on the definition of foul, I suppose.

  Unless women have actually worked with all types of men, I don't think they know just how foul men can speak and act, women too. I had my husband's shadow around me, as the men knew he could show up pretty much any time. I heard the "ok" jokes - they'd tell him the really "foul" jokes, which then he'd tell me in private. No big deal, but jokes about circle jerks, etc., just don't appeal to me - and I really don't care for them. Glad I didn't have to appear sexually mature and laugh at some of them. I can roll my eyes at my husband and walk away - he's used to me.

  It has nothing to do with the strength of the woman, has more to do with the cultural differences of our strange species, imho. Some like the 3 Stooges, some will never get the slap humor.

  hey Kent,

  Simon, a long time ago, said his only request of us was to try to be "civil." We did strive for that - and failed miserably on occasion. I think Wendy & I were famous when he came in with his typically "Ladies! Ladies!" to us. He's so British.......

  I agree that our words can have responsibilities. If we, let alone famous authors, can bring people to laughter, tears, self-healing, self-loathing, anger, hatred........then it's not a stretch that we could have a truly negative effect on some people.

  Are we responsible for anyone else? Guess it would depend upon what degree of responsibility we're speaking of. If I cause you pain, anger - especially needlessly - am I responsible or the reader? Technically, the reader - but then why would any reader have the right to answer back to a poster? The poster would be free to offend at will, no matter how cruel - because the reader is responsible for the feelings.

  Doesn't make sense, and somewhere in the middle of the road is most likely the answer. Try to be civil and not to offend.

  Live and Let Live.

  waiting
• 

  teejay

  Kent, speaking of the misunderstandings that sometimes occur here (and in r/l) you said, "Cultural differences, teejay - that's mor important than we often do believe."

  Personally, I think that's a cop-out.

  Sometimes... hell, many times, unclebruce will use an Aussie expression, like pongo or some other weird word that I've never heard before. Now I consider THAT a true "cultural difference." Even so, depending on who he's addressing, I can usually decipher his intent if not his meaning. It never leads to a misunderstanding, especially, especially if he's addressing ME. Know why? Cause even though we have never met in person, I "know" him. We've been corresponding publicly and privately for some time. His consistent and fair way of expressing himself honestly to everyone on the board allows him to openly disagree even with his friends. His culture is waaay different than mine, but the language of love, courtesy, respect, fellow feeling, is universal. So is the language of intolerance, arrogance, disrespect, indifference.

  When you said what you said to me the other day could have been taken as a joke, I guess, but you more or less explained your true feelings when you followed it up by offering to purchase the needed ammunition for anyone else who might be reading. At that point it was hard to miss what you meant by the words.

  Up to that point we had never really crossed swords, so to speak. You had no way of knowing HOW I might take it since you and at least a couple of the others had me figured all wrong -- didn't KNOW me, in other words (otherwise they wouldn't have been "shocked" or "surprised" when I accepted your "apology"). "Cultural differences" didn't have a damn thing to do with it, and you know it. You meant what you said.

  Some have since tried to equate it with "eat shit and die," but you and I know it's not the same. I've never heard of anyone, either here or there, actually eat shit and die as a result. I have heard others do what you urged me to do, and the resulting misery for those left behind wasn't pretty.

  I wonder if you realize what you seemed to reveal about yourself when to Mommie Dark you said:

  "Fact is, we should be a bit more humble when it comes to judging others, and believing we have the superior life. Facts might actually be otherwise than we ourselves do believe."

  No "cultural differences" there!

  peace,
  todd
• 

  Roamingfeline

  Getting out of a cult is no guarantee that one will be 'happier, healthier, better all round.' Whether one leaves or stays in the cult, being happy and healthy are individual things. As for 'better', that is a pretty subjective term. Better than what? Better compared to what? Whose notion of 'better', or 'healthier' will you offer as the gold standard?

  This notion that we are somehow responsible to show JWs a better way to replace their evil one needs to be laid to rest. If they don't have enough moral fiber to leave the cult when confronted with the masses of evidence, it's NOT my job to babysit and coddle them until they feel strong enough to find some ethics and quit subsidizing that killer organization.

  Hear, hear! There's a big ole grain of truth in the above statement. However, for some reason, I like to stick around in case someone needs a bit of "I understand, been there". And I also like to voice my opinion, very strongly at times, just as many here do. But MD made a VERY good point in that statement.

  Kent, I appreciate the post. Good one. I especially liked the calm way you answered TeeJay when it was very plain to see that he was trying to bait you into something stronger, just to make you eat your words. Good job, Kent!

  RCat

  Live as you will wish to have lived when you are dying.

  -- Christian Furchtegott Gellert
• 

  larc

  Kent,

  I don't know how you got the idea that I think women are stupid or fragile as a group. I was describing a certain place. A bar where people from the age of 21 to 85 show up - people from all walks of life and backgrounds. What I described were the group norms of that particular kind of place. Other neighborhood bars in the US are similiar in their rules. Of course, we have other kinds of bars: pick up bars, sometimes known as meat markets, shop bars, red neck bars, black bars, and upscale bars, but all of that is a story for another day.

  MD and tina,

  I agree with you that our first resposibility is to ourselves and our growth. However, (you knew there would be a however in there didn't you), I think that if I can help someone who is seeking it, with relatively little effort on my part, and with a little care in word selection that I should do it. It doesn't mean I have to, of course. I know that both of you have done the same.

  Teejay,

  I might have agreed with you re: minimal cultural differences. However, (there's that word however, again) I met Norm a few months back when he was in the States, and he explained this to me. Apparently, the Norweigans take great delight in the elegance of their put downs of each other. They think it is great sport.

  Waiting,

  On another thread, you mentioned the Honey Do list. I'm glad you did that. My house is just like you described yours. In fact, I have a picture that's been sitting on the floor for a couple months now. We figure we have til Thanksgiving to get the place straightened up. That's the next time a big group will be here.
• 

  teejay

  and RCat, i'm going to ignore your efforts to instigate (it's plain you don't know what the hell you're talking about) when you said, "I especially liked the calm way you answered TeeJay when it was very plain to see that he was trying to bait you into something stronger, just to make you eat your words."
• 

  teejay

  I might have agreed with you re: minimal cultural differences [until] I met Norm a few months back when he was in the States, and he explained this to me. Apparently, the Norweigans take great delight in the elegance of their put downs of each other. They think it is great sport.

  point taken, Larc, and i understand it completely. but we're not in a small room, here, among friends who know us and share our cultural peculiarities. i know you see the difference. i think we all understand that fact a little better.

  thanks for the reminder.

  peace,
  todd