How do the JW's get around this scripture??

by Crazyguy 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jonathan Drake

  @prologos

  
  

  because neither Christ as he is depicted or God wants people to put faith out of fear. They want people to have faith in them of their own initiative, not because of them showing themselves in some miraculous way and making it obvious. Also because, according to the bible, they are eager to reconcile creation. If Christ was on earth for 1000 years before his ascent to glory that would force the appointed time of the end much farther into the future. 

  So, in perspective of the scriotures, the way things happened would have been the most loving. It allows for the end of sin and suffering to come much sooner in the grand scheme of things. 

  Too, as far as the statement of, "if he is special prove it" I would argue it has been proven. Even if you don't believe in all the miracles that took place, you'd have to concede the fact that human history after Christ's death was shaped by his life. Western culture has been at the mercy of Christianity for a VERY long time. So to suggest that Christ wasnt a special person, even if you don't accept the existence of God or christs messianic status, is to ignore history itself.
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  prologos

  Jonathan, are you suggesting 'vox populi vox dei'  has merit?  most humans that lived  since 033 AD  are still alive and more lives have been shaped by the likes of Lenin, Mao, Mohamedh, Buddha, the Hindus,---

  The story of Jesus was made possible, plausible  by the talking snake fable, divine fertilization ( almost  like the spirit liaisons  prior to the flooding of Mt. Everest) . so, while I love to listen to my son play "Jesus man's desire" by Bach, that  deep emotion thus generated does not make it true.

  It is meant for all men (including Jesus, to die at least* once, just like trees, stars, galaxies and it is not just once either, because *don't forget the story about the second death, after the millenium.    
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  DATA-DOG

  So I guess the END will come in my lifetime??

  
  

  DD
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  R. Jerome Harris

  The curse of death pronounced upon Adam has not been lifted. We all WILL die. Even Jesus was not an exception.

  To understand Hebrews 9:27, one must understand:

  1. The difference between dying and perishing.

  2. Know what First Birth, First Death, Second Birth and Second Death are.

  Dying and Perishing

  When God sent His only begotten Son, was it for the purpose of preventing the world of mankind from dying? No! John 3:16 says from "perishing."

  If one perishes they cease to exist; even as a dead person. Recall that the first man Adam existed in two forms: As a dead soul and when God breathed into his nostrils he became a living soul.  Yet, Adam existed. Existed where? In God's memory. (Book of Life).

  If a person dies, they have not perished because they exists in God's memory and will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29)

  So we all DIE once.

  First Birth, First Death, Second Birth and Second Death

  The Bible at Revelation 20:14 speaks of something called The Second Death. This implies that there must be a First Death. If there is a First Death, there must be a First Birth. If there is a First Birth, there must be a Second Birth.

  All ever born on earth have a First Birth. We all have a biological mother and father. Adam and Eve were exceptions. God created them. All on earth die. This is our First Death. There is no escaping it.

  Now what happens on the other side of our First Death?

  Jesus spoke about it with the Pharisee Nicodemus and Nicodemus did not understand him. Jesus used the expression "Born Again."

  Born Again implies that a person had a first birth. How can a person be born again unless they were first born? That was essentially what Nicodemus did not understand. Yet, what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of being "Born Again" was being born again from the dead: The Resurrection.

  When a person is first born and they take their first breath, what that person has standing inevitably in front of him is an eventual death. (first death)

  Upon being resurrected (born again) a person has a Second Birth. At ones resurrection what now stands in front of the person? Another literal death? No! What stands in front of him is the prospect of "perishing" or removed from God's memory. If one is not in God's memory, that person does not exist, not even as a dead person. This perishing is called The Second Death which is the Lake of Fire at Revelation 20:14.

  The Lake of Fire (Second Death) is a symbol of nonexistence. Anything placed in The Lake of Fire ceases to exist; it is out of God's memory. 

  The Second Death (Lake of Fire) can be likened to taking a piece of paper and throwing it into a literal fire. The paper is consumed and ceases to be. It cannot be restored back to paper. It is gone! It ceases to exist.

  The Second Death (The Lake of Fire) is not a literal place. The reason why this is certain is to look at what is thrown into it. Death itself and Hell itself are thrown into it. One cannot literally burn death and hell. That death and hell are thrown into the Second Death (The Lake of Fire) is another way of saying that both death and hell will one day "be no more." They will cease to exist!

  Rev 21:4 confirms this as it says, "... and death will be no more." Why is that? Because we are previously told at Rev 20:14 that death was thrown into the Second Death (The Lake of Fire).

  So yes, we ALL will die once. We ALL will experience a Second Birth (resurrection as promised by Christ). But at our resurrections we face the judgment of perishing (Second Death) if we PURPOSEFULLY and WILLING sin against God WHEN we are FULLY KNOWING (knowledgeable). When we are Fully Knowledgeable (knowing good and bad) then there is no more forgiveness for sin. The sin we commit when we are fully knowledgeable knowing good and bad is what is called the "unforgivable sin" or "the sin that cannot be forgiven."

  No one today can possibly commit this type of sin because we "DO NOT" know good and bad. Jesus asked forgiveness for those who persecuted and executed him. Why? Because they DID NOT KNOW what they were doing. Their bad act was forgiven.

  Any bad act anyone commits today will be forgiven because WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING.

  Yet a time will come when Christ will teach ALL resurrected God's righteousness (the knowing of good and bad). This will take up to 1000 years during his paradise rule over the earth.

  By the time his 1000 year kingdom ends, no human on earth will be without excuse. That time AFTER Christs rule ends will be a time of faithful endurance as Satan will be released upon ALL of mankind and will mislead them. An angel will come with a message and awaken the misled. (Rev 14:6)  Those who do not respond to that message will do so knowingly and defiantly. They will be without excuse. That is what is called the sin that cannot be forgiven. Christ can no longer ask the Father in our behalf in those future days, "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing? All of mankind will one day know what it is doing and thus there cannot be forgiveness for sin anymore.

  The third and last World Order is of God. There will be no others.
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  Aroq

  R. Jerome Harris, can you please show where in the Bible it says this " removed from God's memory. If one is not in God's memory, that person does not exist, not even as a dead person."
  If what you say is true:
  "The Lake of Fire (Second Death) is a symbol of nonexistence."
  If this is only a symbol, then how can the devil, the beast and the false prophet be tormented day and night forever and ever?  If they do not exist, as you say, then what torment is there for them? They would not even be aware of their lack of wrong doings.
  Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
  "The sin we commit when we are fully knowledgeable knowing good and bad is what is called the "unforgivable sin" or "the sin that cannot be forgiven."
  Please back this claim with scripture
  "Any bad act anyone commits today will be forgiven because WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING."
  So what you are saying is that the likes of Hitler and these crazy people shooting everyone get the same prize at the end of their life??
  "Christ can no longer ask the Father in our behalf in those future days,"
  But this is not what scripture says. Hebrews 7:24&25 say Jesus is able to save forever those who draw near to God.
  Hebrews 7:24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
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  Jonathan Drake

  @prologos 

  i should clarify I know the effects on history don't necessarily make it true  per say. I meant only that the individual is special, made so by the devotion to the person existing for a little over 2000 years or so now. Your references thee to people like Buddha and such, by way of comparison, I would never say such men weren't special even though I don't follow the religion formed around them. They were certainly special in one way or another if they have effected the shape of an entire people's culture. That's what I meant. Regardless of its truth. I hope that I expressed my meaning better here.
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  Half banana

  What evidence is there that  the second phrase of the sentence has any truth in it? ie."after that to face judgement". Certainly all men die, there has never been an exception to this rule but "judgement"...evidence please?
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  BluesBrother

  The question was "How do the dubs get around this"? , not what does it mean.

  If I were to put my J W thinking cap on again, I would reach for my shiny revised NWT and read the scripture thus:

  "24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf.25 This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation"

  The point of it is to contrast the multiplicity of animal sacrifices with the once-for-all-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ. As he says, men die once and receive a judgement. He does not say that as a guarantee that all men ever will have to die, but that is the normal expectation, a generalisation.

  At least that is what I think a dub would say.