Question

by realcourchesne 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

realcourchesne

If we read The New World Translation as it is written, it is quite clear that the God to which they refer to, when using the name “Jehovah” is not applicable to the Father but would identify the Son, Jesus the Christ instead.
Is any one here reads the same thing I read?
Correct me if I’m wrong but I find that The New World Translation tells us that Jehovah (The Father) is the Judge. "As for Jehovah, he will sit to time indefinite. Firmly establishing his throne for judgment itself."
· "And he himself will judge the productive land in righteousness;"
· "And those knowing your name will trust in you," Psalms 9:7,8,10.
It tells us that Christ (The Son) is the (only) Judge:
The New World Translation tells us that Christ is the Judge.
According to what I read in the NWT, the apostle John knew who the "LORD" (Jehovah) of the Old Testament was, he knew that the "Lord" (Jehovah) himself will judge the productive land in righteousness when he said:"For the FATHER judges NO ONE AT ALL, but he has committed all judging to the Son," John 5:22, N.W.
I believe Matthew also, knew the teachings of the Old Testament, when speaking of Christ he said:"For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his work." Matt. 16:27.
Jehovah Saviour:
The New World Translation tells us that Jehovah (The Father) is the Saviour.
· "For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior... " Isaiah 43:3. N.W.
· "I am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides me." Isaiah 43:11. N.W.
Here again the Old Testament is clear concerning the title "Savior", can we question it? There is no Savior beside the "Lord" (Jehovah) of the Old Testament.
Christ Saviour:
The New World Translation tells us that Christ (The Son) is the (only) Savior.
As they wrote in the book of Acts the apostles probably knew that the "LORD" (Jehovah) of the Old Testament was the Son, Jesus the Christ, when they said: "Furthermore, there is no salvation in ANYONE ELSE, for THERE IS NOT ANOTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN that has been given among men by which we must get saved." Acts 4:12, N.W. or as Matthew said: "She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from sins." Matt.1:21 N.W.
Should we believe that the apostle Paul also was aware of the teachings of the Old Testament when he said: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." 1Timothy 1:15, N.W.
The NWT teachs that all things came into existence through Christ
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." John 1:10. In John 1:1-14, we read that Christ, also called the Word, is the Creator of all things and not even one thing came into existence (Apart from him) or not even one thing was not made by him"All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence" John 1:3, N.W.
The Father himself, speaking to Christ said: "YOU at the beginning, O Lord, laid the foundation of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works of YOUR hands" Hebrews 1:10 N.W.
According to the NWT, Christ is the Creator. The Lord that spoke to Isaiah was Christ, and he did not deceive him for what he said in verses 43:3 and 43:11. The book of Acts is not contradictory to the book of Isaiah. Christ is the Lord of the Old Testament that created our world.
According to the NWT, the Creator looked after his Creation
After creating the world, Christ also called the Word, looked after his creation, he is the God that spoke to Isaiah, and Moses, and Jeremiah, and all the other prophets. He directed them and guided them in the administration of the house of Israel. Then this same Creator called the Word was made flesh: "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory" John 1:14 N.W., and he established his Church and at the age of 33, he died on the cross and he continues today and he will continue to supervise his creation until the end, until judgment day, until resurrection day, when he will hand over to the Father, his work. At this time only will he present to the Father his work, the creation he was commissioned to create. 1 Cor. 15:24. According to the Bible, Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, and the Savior. See also: Mat. 28:18, John 3:35, 17:2, 1Cor. 15:27. Heb.2:8.
My question is: How can the WT teach that the Father is called Jehovah if the NWT teaches that Jesus is this God that they call Jehovah?
kes152

It pleased the Father that "all things would be IN his Son." He gave his Son "all authority in heaven and on earth."
He gave his Son the authority to "sit on God's throne" and also sitting personally at the right hand of God.
He gave him all authority in heaven which means:
He has the authority to recieve worship, prayers, spirits of men, forgive sins, beget 'sons' by holy spirit, pour out holy spirit, hinder all from coming to the Father unless it is by Him alone, etc.
All the authority that the Father has, he has given to the son. Only between the Son and Father alone, does the Son choose to subject himself to the Father. But we cannot approach the Father unless the Son personally brings us.
Hebrews 1:6
Revelation 5:12
Revelation 22:3 (Lamb recieves sacred service)
Acts 7:59, 60
Luke 5:21, 24
Acts 2:38
John 14:6
1 Corinthians 15:28
Peace,
Aaron
realcourchesne

Than you very much for your answer!
I understand that it might be hard questions for someone like you that believes the NWT is the only correct translation. But it is not the same circumstance for me (yet). I’m trying to understand what the NWT says in those particular verses.
I don’t believe you understand my question. The NWT is telling us that Jesus Christ (The Son) is the (ONLY), Savior:
As you do, I believe that it pleased the Father to give all authority to His Son as you said: “It pleased the Father that "all things would be IN his Son." Why did not the Father say the truth to Isaiah? Isaiah 43:11. N.W. Instead of saying: "I am Jehovah; AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BISIDE (ME)." What could have stopped the Father to tell the truth, something like: “It pleases ME that all things be in My Son Jesus Christ?” Or something like: “I give the authority to My Son Jesus Christ to create, save and judge this world.”
Why would the Father made the apostles look like if they did not tell untruth when they said: "Furthermore, there is no salvation in ANYONE ELSE, for THERE IS NOT ANOTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN that has been GIVEN AMONG MEN by which we must get saved." Acts 4:12, N.W.
Only one here can be right.
Unless Christ is the Lord Jehovah of the Old Testament, that received the authority to create, save and judge and return it to the Father at the end the NWT is telling us that the Father in heaven is lying or the apostles are lying. Only one here can be right, or the Father telling Isaiah: "I am Jehovah; AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BISIDE (ME)." Or the apostles when saying: "Furthermore, there is no salvation in ANYONE ELSE, for THERE IS NOT ANOTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN that has been given among men by which we must get saved." Acts 4:12, N.W.
If as you said: It pleased the Father that "all things would be IN his Son." What could have stopped the Father to tell the truth in those particular verses?
This example (Savior) is also valid for the three examples I give in my letter.
kes152

Hi Real,
for someone like you that believes the NWT is the only correct translation.
mmm... the NWT doesn't appear to be the only "correct translation" to me. I spoke what I 'heard' and was provided those scriptures to cite.
Why did not the Father say THAT truth to Isaiah?
I asked him that same question, and this is the answer he gave me.
"At that time my Father WAS the Savior of Israel and besides him there was no other. When I was resurrected, and after I had been MADE PERFECT I BECAME responsible for the salvation of all those obeying me. I was not a Savior, but after I had been made perfect, I BECAME the Savior to Israel.
Recall my prayer to my Father before I was killed, I said 'I manifested your name to the men whom you gave to me out of the world. THEY WERE YOURS and you GAVE THEM TO ME, and they have kept your word.' In the beginnig, my Father was the only Savior for Israel. When I BECAME the Savior for Israel, my Father had given them to me. So now I am the Savior of Israel and those with palm branches in their hands have salvation because of me, for I was slaughtered for them."
And he gave me these scriptures he referenced:
Hebrews 5:9
John 17:6
Revelation 7:10
Titus 3:4-7
regarding Acts 4:12. You are correct, there has been no other name GIVEN FROM HEAVEN by which we can get saved. When the Father made the Son our Savior, he limited our "gaining salvation" solely to his name. So that there is NO OTHER possible way that we can get saved unless it is in Christ. The ONLY name that has been "given under heaven by which we can get saved."
Peace to you,
Aaron
realcourchesne

Hi Aaron,
If Jesus became the savior only after He lived and die on this earth; when did the Lord, LAID, (Place, put down), THE FONDATION of the earth itself? We know that He could not create this world after His earthly life because this world was created long before that.
How could Jesus create this world only after He had been MADE PERFECT? Or did He BECAME responsible or in charge for creating a world that was already created by the Father?
"YOU AT THE BEGINNING, O Lord, laid the foundation of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works of YOUR hands" Hebrews 1:10 N.W.
"YOU AT THE BEGINNING, (not after He had been MADE PERFECT) O Lord, LAID, (Place, put down), THE FONDATION of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works of YOUR hands" Hebrews 1:10 N.W.
The NWT teachs that all things came into existence through Christ.
"He was in the world, and THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not." John 1:10. In John 1:1-14, we read that Christ, also called the Word, is the Creator of ALL things and not even one thing came into existence (Apart from him) or not even one thing was not made by him" ALL things came into existence THROUGH (because of) him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence" John 1:3, N.W.
kes152

If Jesus became the savior only after He lived and die on this earth; when did the Lord, LAID, (Place, put down), THE FONDATION of the earth itself?
He "laid the fouundation of the earth" in the beginning. all things were made because of him, in the beginning. Although all things were made by means of him, that did not make him the "Savior for Israel. "
Remember, He PLAINLY says that "they were yours and you GAVE them to me." He said they were not his, although they came into existence because of him. He had to be made perfect in order to be their Savior. The Father had to GIVE them to him in order for them to be his.
He laid the foundation, the heavens were the work of his hands, but that did not make him a Savior. A creator, perhaps, but not a Savior. More is needed in heaven to be recognized as a "Savior," and at the time, Jesus did not have it.
Peace,
Aaron
realcourchesne

Thank you very much for your answer.
I only wanted to know if you believe that Jesus create this world only after He had been MADE PERFECT as your believe that Jesus became the Savior only after He had been MADE PERFECT?
If I understand you believe that at that time the Father WAS the Savior of Israel and besides him there was no other. And when Jesus was resurrected, and after I had been MADE PERFECT, Jesus BECAME responsible for the salvation of all those obeying Him.
Even if I will have forthcoming questions I’m not disputing this subject at this time.
If I understand you believe that Jesus laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning. You believe that ALL things were made BECAUSE of him or BY Him, in the beginning as the NWT teaches. "He was in the world, and THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not." John 1:10.
“ALL things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”
If ALL things came into existence, if ALL things came into life through Jesus, and apart from Jesus not even one thing came into existence or came into life. I only want to make sure if your believes that Jesus was THE creator or was not THE creator as John 1:1-14 says?
Thanks, Real
kes152

Hello realcourchesne,
Sure, ask anything you like. I must warn you however, the 'false stylus' has altered John 1:3 in the NWT. It was also altered in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures, but it has remained intact in the Emphatic Diaglott. There is a small phrase that is missing, and because of that... the NWT implies "evil" originated from God.
Peace to you,
Aaron
realcourchesne

Good Aaron,
I’m glad that you said that I could ask anything I like. So I’m asking you again: Do you believe that Jesus was THE creator or was not THE creator as John 1:1-14 says?
Thank you for your time,
Real
kes152

Hey real,
He said his Father is THE Creator. The Father created, and all things came through the Son. Just like Adam was created, and all sons were created through Adam. The Son was created, and all things came through the Son.
He also said to remember that he said:
"Indeed, I assure you, the Son can do nothing of himself. Only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever the Father is doing, these things also the son does in like manner."
"For the Father loves the Son, and shows him ALL THINGS that he himself does; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may wonder."
John 5:19, 20
Peace to you,
Aaron

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