Gentile Times - When did they end?

by Justin 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  shotgun

  Hi Justin

  You can put a million twists on it or take it as it written.

  Matthew 24

  15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' [2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

  Luke 21

  20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

  70 CE was when Jerusalem fell.
• 

  Justin

  Yes, if we look at the expression "times of the Gentiles" in its original context we will come up with an altogether different explanation. The original purpose of my post was to play by the Watchtower's own rules and see if the end of the Gentile Times could be pinpointed at a particular time within the year 1914. But the expression "times of the Gentiles" or "appointed times of the nations" itself is found only in Luke's gospel, and it must be understood within that context.

  Luke, in turn, was trying to explain the "abomination of desolation" to his non-Jewish readers who would not be familiar with Daniels' prophecy from which that expression is taken, so he explained the abomination in terms of the armies which surrounded Jerusalem in 70 CE. Along the way, he also spoke of the times of the Gentiles. The desolating of Jerusalem which that would involve was not something in the past - it was not the past desolation by the Babylonians - but the desolation by the Romans that was yet future when Jesus was here.

  Luke's gospel is the first of a two-part work which includes the Acts, and in the book of Acts is shown the expansion of the Christian faith among the Gentiles. Luke expected an interruption of God's work among the Jewish people in order to inaugurate a calling of the Gentiles. That's why in the opening chapter of Acts the disciples ask the risen Christ, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kindom to Israel?" And the answer was: "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [Spirit] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:7-8) Paul also wrote that "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Rom. 11:25) So the work of the Kingdom as foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures must wait until the full number of people from the Gentiles who will become members of the body of Christ is completed, and this requires the work of an intervening age. This is the "times of the Gentiles."

  Further comments, either on the way the Society understands the Gentile Times, or the way you think the Bible actually presents the subject, are welcome.
• 

  onacruse

  justin, give me one, just one, good reason to think that, Biblically speaking, the "Gentile times" have any prophetic meaning (Luke not withstanding).

  The Bible speaks, and interprets itself??

  Conondrum, or tautology.
• 

  Justin

  The Gentile Times seem to be part of that category known as eschatology or the doctine of the last things, they are not a fixed period of time to be calculated as the JWs do. Similar to this would be such topics as the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, the new creation, etc. In the sense that these are predictions of what is supposed to occur in the future, they are prophetic. In our own personal experiences they are never fulfilled. Some may take them more or less literally, others figuratively, and others as nonsense. I take them seriously.
• 

  onacruse

  Justin:

  In our own personal experiences they are never fulfilled.

  Interesting, how that same pattern has played out so many times, for so many of us.

  Some may take them more or less literally, others figuratively, and others as nonsense. I take them seriously.

  I don't take them as nonsense, or literally. Seriously? Yes, indeed.

  The mirror is awfully revealing, if we will only face it.
• 

  ozziepost

  there would have been no need to have to explain why the war began before the Gentile Times ended.

  This always troubled me as a dub; I just couldn't match the events i.e. Christ ascends Kingdom power and kicks Satan out of heaven whereupon he wages war on the earth fomenting WW1 which the WTS say was a 'distraction" away from the legitimate heavenly kingdom. It just didn't match up.

  Nowadays i don't have those troubles at all realising that my troubles were caused by flawed chronology and interpretation.

  Which brings me to the point at hand. It seems to me that we have never faced up to the truth about "The Troof" until we've truly rid ourselves ofthe baggage of WTS interpretations. Hence who says "the Gentile Times" has to be anything like what the dubs teach? All this 2,520 years business is WTS teachings and dare I say, invention?

  Cheers, Ozzie (freedom lovers class)
• 

  peacefulpete

  It grieves me that many leaving the JWs continue believing apocalyptic nightmares and continue seeking hidden chronological messages in the books that became the bible. The Lukan phrase "time of the nations" in context meant to the writer a short period of divine punishment to Jerusalem beginning with the seige by the Romans (had already occurred at the time of writing) ending very shortly (within that generation) with the anticipated restoration of a Jewish state. It failed to happen. There is no connection to the present or future. Move on folks and begin living.
• 

  Pole

  peacefulpete,

  Move on folks and begin living.

  That's my motto too.

  Every time I hear people speculating about an ambiguous Bible passage usually based on an ancient metaphor or on Jewish wishful thinking (Jerusalem will flourish again, blablabla), I imagine all those poor billions of people around the world, who have never had the chance to know WTS or adventist teachings. Why hasn't God let them learn about all those 'modern fulfilments'???

  I think there is one major reason why so many religious Westerners throughout centuries have believed in their living in 'the times of the end' or anything to that effect. It's because we are all living in the time of our end.

  We will all perish one day, just like our ancestors. It's not that obvious for so many of you, though. You seem to think: How can the universe go on without me??? Ok, it may last 20-25 years after I die (temporarily), but not much longer, right? YOu're being megalomaniac! Cementaries are full of irreplaceable people like you!!! (This also refers to some of you who think they are the modern (black - that's fine - why not, but transsexual - wow, why yes????) messiah :), as I learnt recently while browsing some of the older posts here. Nothing personal - I'm just taking what some of you have said here at face value... Maybe I'm naive...

  Move on folks and begin living.

  Pole
• 

  ozziepost

  I think there is one major reason why so many religious Westerners throughout centuries have believed in their living in 'the times of the end' or anything to that effect. It's because we are all living in the time of our end.

  Oh no!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  That's exactly what the WT of 1995 said to 'excuse' their changed generation teaching.
• 

  Pole

  That's exactly what the WT of 1995 said to 'excuse' their changed generation teaching.

  Wow, I didn't realize I was indoctrinated so deeply. Thanks for letting me know.

  Still, I'm free of speculative prophetic manias.... And that was the main message in my comment: what I'm saying effectively is that some religions explore the obvious fact that we're are all nearing our individual ends to make people believe that we are all nearing our big collective end....

  Just in case I wasn't too clear.

  Pole