So the $* is starting to hit the fan as far as our fading away goes. A friend approached my spouse and confronted her on our kids going to a birthday party. It turned into a long discussion and at one point the UN scandal came up and my spouse compared it to the brothers in Malawi who died rather than get a political card. Our "friend" said that those brothers were told they had to renounce Jehovah or their belief in Jehovah. Does anyone have any proof either way regarding this? I don't have my CoC book nearby to check it, so thought I would try here...
Malawi vs UN scandal and the #$&* hits the fan
by amac 14 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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metatron
Many of them probably were told to renounce their faith AFTER THEY MADE THE CARD
INTO AN ISSUE! If they had simply bought the damn thing without making a big deal out of it
- then why would the government have persecuted them? Clearly, the Watchtower Society
didn't make a big deal out of a MUCH worse situation in Mexico in which the card was
obtained by a customary bribe and identified one as a member of the armed forces.
This is yet another example of how Witnesses bring persecution on themselves for no
good reason.
metatron
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Elsewhere
Our "friend" said that those brothers were told they had to renounce Jehovah or their belief in Jehovah.
The burden of proof is on him... don't let him trick you into trying to prove a negative (something that is impossible). Make him prove his claims.
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Swan
Our "friend" said that those brothers were told they had to renounce Jehovah or their belief in Jehovah.
How does he know this? What does he have to substantiate his claim? From what I remember of that time back then it was the party card that was the issue. I knew that the Mexican JWs were under "a ban" but didn't know about the military card part of it until a couple of years ago when I saw the strong evidence presented in CoC.
Tammy
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TallTexan
I'll look up some of those old articles when I get home tonight, but if memory serves correctly, it was simply a purchase of a party card, no more, no less. There was no connection between the party card and one's faith. It was the brothers there who chose not to do so, at the urging of the society, to 'maintain their neutrality'. The previous post concerning renouncing of beliefs I also think came as a result of the brothers making an issue out of their loyalty to god over loyalty to the party. If they had just bought the damn things to begin with, there would have been no issue. And, as CoC points out, it was a one party system, basically a dictatorship, so purchasing of the card would not have been showing support for one party over another
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TallTexan
Also, did you point out to your 'friend' that being an NGO requires an organization to "support the charter of the UN" and to promote the good that the UN does?? Ask him to give one good reason/excuse/rationale that the society could possibly use to make it o.k. for them to 'support the charter' of the notorious wild beast of Revelation........
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undercover
Our "friend" said that those brothers were told they had to renounce Jehovah or their belief in Jehovah.
Becoming an NGO of the UN consists of supporting and promoting the ideals of the United Nations. To support and promote the UN would, for all intense purposes, mean that they renounce one's belief in Jehovah's plan for destruction of the very entity that they aligned themselves with. This is tantamount to renouncing Jehovah himself.
So, what's the difference?
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amac
Thanks for the repsonses...this friend is hopelessly dense, so trying to get them to follow logic is near impossible...too brainwashed. So we really don't plan on attempting to even discuss the topic with this friend. I am mostly just curious for future reference since I think I will be having similar discussions with other friends.
I checked CoC as well and you all are right. It was a one party system that simply required a purchase of a party card. If you can be declared a citizen and be part of a political nation, why can;t you buy a stupid card? Any future discussions will have to where they learned about them having to renounce their faith, because that doesn't seem to have been part of the problem.
Thanks again!
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BluesBrother
I just thought it might be woth putting up a WT quote on the subject, with no comment from me, except to say that we should not lose sight that the perpetrators of this horrible persecution are the ones to blame for beating, looting and raping.
I wonder if any one has ever seen a print of the card so as to see what it actually said and what was really implied by carrying one?
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w68 2/1 pp. 72-73 Shocking Religious Persecution in Malawi ***Why
the Persecution?Since this is the way the witnesses of Jehovah conduct themselves, why, then, all this violent persecution of them in Malawi? One of the main reasons is that the Witnesses refuse to buy membership cards in Malawi?s Congress Party as well as refuse to buy and wear badges with the picture of the President of Malawi, Dr. H. Kamuzu Banda. Other religious organizations, Catholic, Protestant and Moslem, have all yielded to pressure in these respects, but Jehovah?s witnesses have not. Why? Because of their strictly adhering to the Word of God.
As Christian witnesses of Jehovah they follow the example of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who kept free from the politics of his day. He said that his followers were "no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:16) And before the Roman political ruler of Judea, Pontius Pilate, he testified: "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source." (John 18:36) Previously, when the Jews wanted to seize him to make him king, he eluded them and retreated alone into a mountain.?John 6:15.
Yes, Jesus preached and gave his allegiance to "the kingdom of the heavens," "the kingdom of God." Following Jesus? footsteps as sincerely dedicated Christians, Jehovah?s witnesses have no alternative but to keep separate, "without spot from the world." Since they can give their allegiance only to Jehovah God and his kingdom, they feel obligated to refrain from participating in any action that gives such devotion to political leaders. So they remain neutral as to the political affairs of Malawi, even as they do regarding the political affairs of every other land in which they happen to live. It is because of this Christian neutrality that they are being persecuted in Malawi"
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hooberus
Any future discussions will have to where they learned about them having to renounce their faith, because that doesn't seem to have been part of the problem.
I would not even try to go into the issue of some individual JW claiming that the witnesses in Malawi had to directly renounce their faith in Jehovah. I do not even believe that the WT has made this claim. The WT has simply implied that the mere act of having the card identifies the bearer as supporting and acquiescing to the principals of the ruling political party. They even imply that the act may seem "insignificant" (hardly a direct renoncement of faith in Jehovah). However the watchtower claims that even seemingly "insignificant" appearing acts such as this are really taking the mark of the beast because in order to get the card the malawi witnesses must agree to provide support to the political party.
Watchtower 1976 10/15 632-6
The "mark" of the beast would identify the one having it as belonging to that "wild beast," giving it full support. Ellicott's Bible Commentary notes that the mark 'surely means the acquiescence to the principals of this tyrannical world-power.'
In modern times, the Christain body, known world wide as Jehovah's Witnesses, has experienced from the "wild beast" the same things as first-century Christians. Take the African county of Malawi, for example. There all citizens have been required to become members of the country's only existing political party, the "Malawi Congress Party." A membership card costing about twenty-five cents (U.S.) identifies the bearer as 'acquiescing to the principals of the ruling political party,' . . .
As Jehovah's Witnesses they value their relationship to God and Christ above everything else. Were they to identify themselves as giving unquestioning support to any politcal arrangement, they would be acting contrary to the Bible's teaching that all human governmental systems exist by God's toleration only until such time as he chooses to replace them by his kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ. (Dan. 2:44; 7:13, 14) Jehovah's Witnesses have promised to give unqualified allegiance exclusively to God and Christ. Any act on their part that would indicate otherwise, therefore, would be an act of disloyalty. Such an act would be taking away from God and Christ their rightful due and would be worship fo the "wild beast."
No matter how insignificant the act required may seem, a Christian's engaging in such worship would mean his being disloyal to God and Christ.
Comments: In order to get the insignificant twenty-five cent Malawi poltical card an applicant would be 'acquiescing to the principals of the ruling polital party" they would be, by receiving this card be taking the mark of the beast, because in order to get the card they would have to indicate that they support and acquiescing to the principals of the political entity.